"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message ...
snip
Let's review, I stuck to the subject of airliners and token sock changed the
subject and told me I am wrong. In another branch of this thread, we were
discussing shooting an airliner with a 50 calibre rifle, shooting a specific
kind of exploding ammunition, to hit an engine and Weiss piped in about any
rifle hitting the airplane at all.



I do not see why Weiss should enter into this post. However, as you
said "in another branch of this thread". And yet in that branch the
subject line was not changed to include "bullets". So why would you
discuss them at all? Oh...I see...it is ok to branch out on the
subject, unless you are shown to be using data that can not be
supported. And then that branching becomes "changing the subject so
that you can be correct". And the poster is a "dumbass".


snip

Also, in my original post, please quote what I said that was a flame.

No, token sock, you were rude and suggested a completely differen flight
profile as your proof that I am wrong. If you wanted to create a different
branch to the thread, all you had to do was avoud being an ass.



No place in my original post did I talk about flight profiles at all.
I talked about a different target platform with the same type of
engines you described. I clearly identified it as a different
platform in the body of my text.

As far as being rude is concerned, you may indeed be able to correctly
identify when someone is being rude, as being rude, or at the very
least "abrupt", seems to be your default condition. However, no place
in my original post was I being intentionally rude.




I pointed out that you were wrong about HBPR engines and the Igla, and
to prevent any misunderstanding of what I meant I clearly stated as it
applies to the A-10. I never implied or said that I was trying to
claim anything about airliners.

Do you really want me to repost your original post?


No need to repost my original post, just repost whatever part you feel
is about airliners with the complete sentence before and after that
part included.



If I am wrong, and you are correct, provide some information on when
an Igla was fired at an HBPR equipped commercial airliner. If you can
name one it will lend some credibility to what you say, if you can
name two, you will have built a case.

Either way, right now the thread is speculation. The only airliners I know
of that were taken out by manpads were 727s.




Yes, the thread is largly speculative. But only as applied to Igla.
Confirmable information that can be accessed in on-line sources
indicate that 727's have been shot down, 737's have been hit. Antonov
Il-76's and Fokker F-27's have also been brought down. Several other
large aircraft have been downed, but they were mostly turbo-prop, not
turbojet or fan. Several piston engined aircraft have been shot down
by MANPADs, including at least one DC-3. One source claims a DC-7 has
been taken down, but I have not been able to find supporting evidence.

I have not been able to find a source for the full FBI report that
documents 29 confirmed cases of airliners being shot down. I have
only gotten bits and pieces of that report, normally in the form of
quotes used by other sources.

Interesting thing about those piston engined aircraft being downed.
Have you ever looked at the thermal signature of a piston engined
aircraft versus any type of jet aircraft? I have viewed both types,
using a Merlin Mid camera in the 3-5 micrometer band, and a Pheonix in
the near, or 1-2.5 micrometer band. The piston engined aircraft all
had a significantly smaller signature than any high by-pass ratio fan
I have seen. As one would suspect, the piston aircraft had
essentially no plume, but only a hotspot on the exhaust. Naturally,
the plume of a jet shows best in the 3-5 band, with little in the
1-2.5 band, while the engine hard hotspots show in both the 1-2.5 and
the 3-5 band.

Remember that part of the problem with an aircraft's signature is not
just in temperature, but in total energy. In other words, if the
exhaust temp is 100 C cooler, but covers twice the area, and the total
of that area falls within the instantaneous field of view of the
seeker optics, then the seeker will still see the cooler temp as a
very seductive target. At least until you can cool the temp enough so
that there is little contrast between the exhaust temp and the
background. IR targeting is, after all, a world of contrast, rather
than absolutes.



snip


"token sock"? That is twice you have directed derogatory comments at
me, in response to nothing but information from me. If I am the sock,
you are my puppet, and I am sure you find sock puppets very amusing.
Even when you are only amusing yourself. Dance puppet, dance.

What else do you think using a character from South Park as a handle would
get you?

I have used the logon name of "Token" since 1972. I have used it in
Usenet since 1993 or 1994. A search on Google will show that this
name and this address have been used together since early 1999. Prior
to that it was used with another address. I first posted with this
name, to this newsgroup, but with a different email address in Oct
1996. I do not regularly watch South Park. I guess what it all comes
down to is I am not using a character from South Park, unless you
seriously believe I am capable of predicting the development of a
television show more than 25 years before it arrives.

T!