Subject: Aircrew casualities
From: Guy Alcala
Date: 9/26/03 3:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Aircrew casualities
From: Guy Alcala
Date: 9/25/03 8:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 3F73B305.D9AA9E02@junkpostof

Okay, I've been able to retrieve a copy of Martin Middlebrook's "The
Schweinfurt-Regensburg Mission," August 17th, 1943, which includes a
breakdown of B-17
crewmen killed by crew position on that day. Middlebrook gives the
following
info (info

One mission does not a war make.

Obviously, which is why I included the following caveat at the end of that
post:

"Naturally, this can hardly be considered applicable to the entire war, but
it is
a fairly good sample size (from 60 a/c shot down) and probably gives a fair
representation of the relative odds for each crewmember given the situation
in
August 1943. Most of
the tactics, techniques and weapons also used by the Germans in 1944 and 1945
were
in use by that time, although the balance between fighter and flak losses
obviously shifted in 1944 and 1945, which might change the survival odds for
some
of the
positions."

Especially Schweinfort Regensburg which may
be be one he most atypical targets/missions of all.

As far as tactics, techniques, and weapons used, Regensburg/Schweinfurt was
quite
typical of deep penetration missions to Germany in the summer and fall of
1943,
well beyond fighter cover. Indeed, it was the first to go that deep, but was
followed up by several more in September and October, with similar results.
The
only difference between this mission and others was that the 4th bW went on
to
Africa, but that is unlikely to affect the distribution of KIA in shot down
B-17s.

If I think back to the
missions I flew with the 344th and had to name a "typical" mission, I
couldn't
do it. We had no typical mssions.. Each one was unique, except of course
for
the milk runs, which in themselves were not typical.

Sure, but we're looking for statistical data on survival rates, and so far
the
only such data presented in the course of this thread is that which I
provided in
that post. Everything else has been perceptual or anecdotal. We now have
some
actual data (limited to a single mission though it is, and only 60 B-17
combat
losses out of the 4,688 B-17s combat losses in the European war as a whole),
which
is more than we've had otherwise.

Guy

P.S. I'll be out of town for a couple of days, so will be out of touch for a
while.



You are only saying that because you never had to fly the Schweinfort mission.
If you had there would be no way in hell you would call it typical. Find me
one guy who went to Schweinfort and said it was just another mission like all
others. No big deal. Nothing special. Find me just one such guy. Guy you post a
lot of good stuff here, but sometimes you just slip away from reality.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer