"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...


Not necessary. This is because you are not a scientist Keith.
Otherwise you would know that humans never landed
on Sun and other distant stars (at least officially) but
its material compositions are known from spectroscopy data.
Some elements (helium for instance) were first discovered on
Sun and only after that was found on Earth.

Spectroscopy will tell you what elements are present and in what
proportions but can tell you nothing about the structure of the
objects themselves. Diamond, graphite and hard coal all show
up as carbon in a spctroscopic analysis.

So what?


But you know this Michael so you seem to be being somewhat
less than wholly truthful.


100% truthful. NASA had tons of meteorites of different type.
only from ANSMET program NASA got some 10000 Antarctic meteories
Spectroscopy data were good enough to separate lunar rocks from that
stock. BTW lunar meteorites have no single structure. It can be
as different as basalts and breccias.

As for the Lunar
materials... well a standard marker composition can be easily
measured by an automatical probe and results send here by radio.
They did send automatical probes (Surveyors) to moon prior
"manned missions", did'n they? Moreover it was easy to guess
about some picularities of moon rocks, like extreme lack of
water or free oxigen and certain minerals which are known to
originate from nonexistent on moon processes. Given big enough
meteorite collection it is easy to design such a marker set.
Just a piece of cake, Keith!


Nonsense Michael, this tells you nothing about the structure
of the rocks, the density, crystalline structure, evidence of
folding and distribution. All vital to the geologist.

folding... of rocks you mean?


As an example the microscopic pitting and high helium 3
surface content of the surface layer on rocks recovere by
both the soviet and lunar sampling efforts was unexpected.
These are believed to be caused by micrometeoroid impacts
and interaction with the solar wind are unque to those samples
retrieved from the moon as the meteorites of lunar origin have
the surface burned away on re-entry

No idea. Maybe. Although this was not mandatory to separate
lunar meteorites from other types.


by the way Keith so far NASA did not claim to land man on
Mars or in asteroid belt rocks, but meteorites from all
these places are easy to recognize and of course is on
sell with certificates as well.


Because since the 1960's much more advanced automated
landers have been available.


Good! So I record: Keith is agree that samples of moon rocks were
not necessary to recognize lunar meteorites.

So if you believe the Americans faked their samples
by buying lunar meteorites they would have to know
the nature of the lunar rocks or to fake or get the
Soviets to buy similar fakes for their lander several
years later.

"If" is not a proper wording here, keith. They knew for sure.


Hardly Michael , the surveyor probes which landed on the
moon in the late 60's had primitive sampling mechanisms
which were pretty much limited to performing soil
mechanics tests. They were sent to check that the surface
was hard enough to land on.

The experiments performed were


1) Alpha Scattering Surface analyser used to determine the
abundances of the major elements of the lunar surface with
the important exceptions of hydrogen, helium, and lithium

hm..


2) Surface bearing tests using strain gauges , accelerometers
and rate gyros

I find it comical that you claim advanced automatic lab facilities
capable of a full analysis were available when in you earlier
post you were stressing how primitive the available computers
were.

Then Keith even more comic for you is that "Alpha Scattering
Surface analyser used to determine the abundances of the major elements
of the lunar surface..." sounds exactly like determination of the chemical
markers for lunar meteorites I was talking about.



Then of course their the problem of buying 400 kg
of different meteorite fragments with nobody noticing.

why? somebody was noticing. As far as I know so far no
lunar meteorites were officially found in US soil
while it is estimated to be around of a few % of all
meteorites found today. Don't you think it is a bit of
strange give US with US huge deserts?

Since nobody knew what a lunar meteorite looked like
until after Apollo 11 returned its precisely what any
sane person would expect.

If one have reliable markers it was easy to separate lunar
meteorires from the rest and to know "what any sane person
would expect"


Although of course
you don't. particularly given that NASA was known to buy
lots of them from privat persons all over the world.



I'm afraid all you did is demonstrate how prejudice
can lead even intelligent people astary.

Never say never, Keith. European SMART-1 is on the way to moon
and japanese Lunar-A and Selene are getting ready to follow soon.
They can send us very unexpected pictures of Apollo landing sites.
US privat company's "TrailBlazer" can do in principle but who in
a good mind can trust US data? Not me at least.


Doubtless you'll use some other excuse when pictures of the
Apollo Landers are beamed back.

We will see. I do not know how about you but I am looking
forward to see that.

Michael

Keith