On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:04:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote in
:

On Dec 22, 12:05*pm, wrote:

The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
at the surface.

Look at the Las Vegas TAC.

I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,

You'll find a chart he http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523

but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
to get cleared into Bravo.

The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).

Okay. However IFR Standard Terminal Arrivals usually come with a
clearance. I found the IFR procedure plates he
http://flightaware.com/resources/air...AS/ALL/all/pdf but I
haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?

You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words ["cleard into Class Bravo airspace"].

Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".

Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
specifically saying cleared into bravo[)] causes confusion as just in
this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
position.

Perhaps.

The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
airpsace.

Allen


I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
ATC actually said. Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. Did ATC say,
"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? Did ATC say "cleared" at all?