On Jan 9, 11:57�am, wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:43�am, wrote:





On Jan 9, 9:30�am, Andy wrote:

I see no reason why a pilot that chooses to exit from the back of the
cylinder cannot work any gaggle on route to the first turnpoint. �Why
does joining a gaggle in the vicinity of the start have a higher risk
than joining one on course?

Traffic density near top of gate/cloud base, for starters. �There's
also the issue of blending on course traffic with pre-start traffic.

From my point of view, the potential increase in opposing traffic near
cloud base/top of gate would justify the rule by itself. �More
broadly, the rules strategy seems to be to take the incentive for
competitive flying out of the gate area and move it out on course
where it belongs.

-T8

I'm still trying to work out in my mind how going with a 50% smaller
start area DEcreases traffic density. I think the only relevant
scenarios here are ones where you can start out the top of the
cylinder - but can't climb high enough to clear the edge of the
cylinder. That means the top of useable lift has to be within around
1,500' of MSH. Lower than that and pilots will find thermals closer to
the edge of the cylinder or start out the side. Higher than that and
any thermals you hit post-start will be with gliders that also have
already started, which is basically indistinguishable from entering a
thermal 5 miles out on course. That wouldn't appear to me to happen
all that often and the CD could certainly try to avoid setting MSH
close to the forecast top of lift.

TT made the point that even with the proposed modification you still
have 5 miles of radius to find a great start thermal that's somehow
lined up with a gaggle on your intended course line. I don't think I
can reliably see a glider from more than 5 miles away anyway so I
don't think offering the full cylinder will do much to increase
instances of people trying to do this in a premeditated way. I think
it's safe to say that the main scenario is someone starting out the
top who suddenly sees a gaggle along the way.

BB made the point that some pilots may elect to start from behind the
arc where they get distance credit if there's a good thermal to be had
since they can still get a legitimate start. They will just fly a mile
or two without getting credit for it. I'm thinking that would only
really make sense it the lift were really awesome (to save the lost
two minutes of on-course time you'd need to climb the fifteen hundred
feet at 15 knots rather than at 5 knots for example), or you might do
it if you were a dedicated pre-start gaggle bumper (the advantage here
seems minimal - I don't think I can save 2 minutes - or 1 minute by
bumping gaggles). In either case it would mean the rule change wasn't
very effective.

I get that the very back of the cylinder narrows a bit and so starters
from way back there would tend to overfly the middle of the cylinder.
I also get that traffic can fan out a bit on course - particularly if
you have a short first leg with a very big turn area. But a 10-mile
diameter start cylinder is pretty darn big - so the amount of fan-out
on course seems to be small for most TATs and all ASTs and MATs with a
first turn specified.

My perception is that a factor in gaggling is pilots who wait for the
post-start radio calls of other pilots and start right after them.
Under the old rule you had a good sense of where they'd be because the
optimal start point was at the edge of the cylinder near course line.
Under the original start anywhere rule a starter could be anywhere in
a 10 mile distance along course line and was a lot less likely to be
near MSH if the lift was going higher, so it became pretty hard to
time your start to reliably make a marker out of another pilot. Under
the modified rule it may become a more manageable strategy.

9B- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, making the circle 50 percent smaller does not decrease
density. But, the circumference of just the half outside circle is
15.7079 miles. The area of the half circle is 39.269908 square miles
(based on a 5 mile radius). I do agree that this will help stop
leeching, spread folks out, yet will make the start more luck prone to
those who get lucky in finding a strong thermal within the start
cylinder and wish to start out the top. It has not stopped the
prestart competition for the best start. Those who launch last will
have a disadvange on certain days due to with the old start rules,
they knew where to look for the prestart gaggles. Now, launching last
will not give the opportunity to search the start cylinder for the
bigger climbs that earlier starters have found. Of course, the launch
does rotate, but some will again have better luck than others.
The issue still remains. A rule has been made which is flawed
to begin with. Any justifacation attemp towards a flawed rule is
flawed in itself. All turn areas are designed to be turned in at any
point, now is not the case. Any start within a start defined area
should not result in a point decrease if any entrant chooses to turn
anywhere within a defined turn area. An entrant should not get less
points for airmanship he thinks is the best for him/her at that time.
What's bothersome is for those who don't understand this could receive
less points and will never know what has occured.
The argument can be made that all entrants should read and
understand the rules as written. But when a rule is written which
becomes complex and goes against what the wishes of the rules
committee are, as describe by the post of BB, then the SSA directors
should be contacted to inform them as to what they are voting on (some
board members are not current entrants). I know that the rules
committee members will also inform the directors at the SSA general
meeting coming up, of what these posts have discussed, before the
directors vote on this new rule. At least one rules committee member
is a director and whom I highly respect. I have full faith that these
posts have brought up areas to think about and that this will be gone
over at the SSA meeting before its voted on by the directors.

Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711