On Aug 28, 10:26Â*pm, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:53:10 PM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:43:23 PM UTC-6, Duster wrote:

Bill D Â* Â*On Saturday [in part]

...If you look carefully at Bruno's video of the inadvertent, incipient spin, you will see a moment where the stick is moving progressively left even as the glider accelerates its roll to the right. That's the instant he departed from controlled flight - the glider was not 'answering' his aileron input. It should set off all the alarms in your head as it did in his.. Â*For me, it's like an electric shock.

Bruno's recovery was not textbook but it worked extremely well. Â*He unloaded the wing by moving the stick forward unstalling the wing and reentering the realm of controlled flight where his ailerons worked normally. Â*Even his narration indicated he didn't apply opposite rudder in a timely manner as the text books call for. Â*Actually, I think he did the right thing - first unload the wing then, after it unstalls, fly the glider normally.

Bill makes several good points. However, Bruno's response to the

incipient right-hand spin as viewed on his tape (

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpJA5...feature=relmfu) and

narrated in his YouTube comments is not what happens. He does have the

stick biased to the left, but then after he enters the spin and his

reaction is to jam more opposite aileron in. Also, I do not see him

unload the wing and the stick never appears to move forward, at least

by much. His rudder input is what appears to unstall the glider. To

quote from his 70K viewed video. " I instinctively moved the stick

left after the wing dropped to the right and started spinning. It

didn't cause the spin entry because I did it after the spin started.

You are completely right though that I should have moved the stick

back to neutral or even into the turn. I thought I had at the time the

video proved I didn't.  Can't argue with video. -Bruno"

The stick doesn't have to move forward much - 3/4 of an inch will do it.. Â*I thought I saw that much. Â*The main thing is to "feel" the ailerons start "answering the helm" again - then add some airspeed and don't do it again.

I am extremely saddened to hear of Jim's accident and passing. My heart goes out to his family and close friends. In the soaring community we all are close friends and family.

I don't have a clue what happened to Jim and still don't understand why ships will spin close to the ground when they don't normally up high - other than the new to me points made by John C.

My video that has been referenced before can be a good learning tool but there are some facts that need to be known. Â*I was flying in an ASW-20BL that had some major known flight and stability issues. Â*The ship would try to spin on me at least 10 times every flight while thermalling! As you can see in the video I was able to get out of it and still stay centered in the thermal. Spinning is always a surprise but I had actually gotten used to it.

PLEASE NOTE that what got me out of the spin was that I immediately and instinctively went into negative flap. I didn't have time to press the rudder before it was already out of the spin and recovering. Yes, I reactively moved the ailerons in the wrong direction because I instinctively didn't want to turn the way the ship was turning/entering into spin. I think if most unexpected spins were caught on video you would also see the reflexive pull of the stick in the wrong direction as the nose drops and aircraft dip to the side unexpectedly. It was the moving of the flaps to negative that would always get me out of the spin before I had time and presence of mind to do the 3 right things we are all taught with unloading the sailplane, opposite rudder and neutralizing the ailerons. I had trained myself to instantly throw the flaps forward as soon as the sailplane broke and you can see that little altitude was lost.

Please note that we fixed this particular 20's spin tendency with those crazy wonderful winglets and it never tried to spin on my again. Â*I have not had a single spin either since getting a 27. My thoughts are with Jim and his loved ones and hope and pray we don't have any more of these terrible events.

Warm wishes,
Bruno - B4- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since we have Bruno's video and comments for a "real-life" spin
(albeit at altitude), it looks like he was successful in getting out
of the spin solely by moving flaps either from positive to negative,
or from neutral to negative (you can see the flap handle position; are
they positive before the spin?). From what I gather, no opposite
rudder was inititated and he even went more opposite aileron after the
spin begins. What impresses me is that once the spin was recognized,
there was no hesitation in immediately reaching for the flap handle.
Why? Like he said, it was the most effective control input for
recovery based on his experience. I will try this in my own flap-only
ship to see if it works; however at low altitude I'm not inclined to
dump my flaps as the ship would settle and the stall speed goes up. My
question is on the ASW-20, which I've never flown, aren't the flaps
and ailerons interconnected to increase effectiveness? So, as the
flaps go to negative, lift decreases, correct?, but aileron
effectiveness becomes less also, right? Doesn't this effectively help
neutralize aileron effectiveness w/o moving the ailerons, yet be
sufficient to unspin it? Would the same technique be used at a more
critical altitude? Bruno's obviously a skilled pilot who knows his
ship; he even had the presence of mind to keep turning in the thermal.
I wish the Soaring Safety Foundation would consider archiving white
papers on flying characteristics of the different glider models, as
one recipe doesn't fit them all. A lot of good stuff gets lost in the
blogosphere. Gliderpedia anyone?
..
One lesson I learned from a master CFIG (Burt Compton) during a
simulated rope break was to avoid looking immediately back at the
airport. His point was that some stall-spins might be due to pilots
inadvertently pulling the stick back as they pivot their heads around.