Subject: Death On The North Sea Gunnery Range
From: ELETEME (Kurt R. Todoroff)
Date: 8/12/2004 1:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Agreed. You weren't trained as a pilot, and therefore, should refrain
from
commenting on pilot issues.


Kurt,
That wasn't nice!

No, it wasn't. However, I was paraphrasing Art's long standing act of
condescension, against himself. He'll probably deny having ever done this,
and
then reply to this post by inquiring if I've ever been in combat. (I made
this
clear, without being asked, many posts ago.) He might even claim that a
person
may only post to this newsgroup and even discuss any topic on this planet
ONLY
if his name is Art Kramer, and who was a B-26 bombadier in World War II only
in
his unit.

Art was trained as a bomb aimer/navigator and part of an aircrew. Safety of
flight is part of everyone's responsibility in a multiplace a/c. Monitoring
the
progress of the a/c is the nav's responsibility as well as the pilots. That
includes postion relative to the water or ground.

Nobody supports the integrated crew concept more than me. Every WSO that
I've
flown with knew my position that crew coordination and individual
responsibility were essential to safe mission completion. None of my WSOs
had
any doubt in their mind about my position.


OH Jeezus, I agreed with Art on something!
Rick


Well he's right except that he never mentioned pilot in any of the previous
posts. Had he done so I never would have responded as I did.


Art, that's twice that you've misrepresented my posts in this newsgroup
subject. Either you're lazy or you're not telling the truth. I suggest that
you reread these postings. As many others have said, you have previously
made
valuable contributions to this newsgroup by sharing your World War II
aviation
experiences. However, your arrogant and condescending manner to visitors,
your
sloppy review of, and responses to postings, your denial of your actions that
have clearly been documented in this newsgroup, have diminished your
credibility, perhaps irreparably. Your disposition to antagonize others, and
then avoid their important questions is legend here. Your often flip,
smart-alecky retorts are the stuff of children, not adults who command
respect.
I admire accomplishment. I pity people who's insecure personalities are
based
on conceit and arrogance. Please leave your obnoxious conceit and your
personality shortcomings at the door before joining us. There's no need to
rip
your shirt open and flash the big S to us, because it just doesn't exist.

If you can manage some humility, and act down to earth, please feel free to
join us.



Kurt Todoroff



I recently bought a new computer and faoiled to transfer all the PLONKS from
the old to the new. I shall now begin to correct that oversight.

PLONK.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer