On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:54:50 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

BTW, John, I've read that the (hard-wing) F-4 could generally
beat
the F-8 at low/medium altitude (once the pilots learned to use its energy
advantage), but at high altitudes the F-8's lower drag (induced, parasitic
and/or wave) gave it the advantage. What's your take?

Pretty good numbers, I think.

As to the F-8 versus F-4, you presented the prevailing conventional wisdom
of the time. When I was an F-8 guy, I felt I pretty much could have the
Phantom for lunch. But there was a time or two when the individual I
opposed transformed the jet into a serious adversary, "Who IS that guy?"

The F-8 had superior PsubS under G than the Phantom at altitudes above
15,000 feet, so any kind of classic turning fight (oblique loop, etc was the
thing in the tacmans at the time) played to its advantage. The Phantom was
more controllable very slow and enjoyed superior unloaded acceleration.
That points to a VERY vertical fight.

When I finally transitioned to the F-4, I thought, "No wonder it was so easy
to beat up on this jet." But, by the 500 hour mark I had changed to, "How'd
we EVER beat up on this jet?" The F-4 was the antithesis of the
point-and-pull fighter and required a great deal of finesse to fight well
(skills that many never achieved IMO). Once mastered, you could
successfully engage just about any aircraft of its generation ... albeit a
roller with a Mig-17 was ill-advised (hear that, Duke?). Of course, once
the next generation appeared (F-14 and subsequent), there really wasn't
anyplace to take the fight they couldn't go.

R / John


I concur. One major factor was that the F-8 community was much like
the USAF's 479th TFW/435th TFS F-104 bunch--a group optimized for day
fighter air-superiority ops. They were the lead element of the
creation of new tactics--things like Fluid Attack and Loose Deuce
along with detailed analysis of what was really going on in vertical
maneuver, split-plane operation, and one-circle/two-circle fights. (I
freely admit that the USN was well ahead of the USAF at that point in
air/air development).

And, you highlight the demand of that era to take the fight to your
best corner of the envelope. Plus, you correctly note that the advent
of the "teen fighters" means that every corner of the modern envelope
is now available and the fight goes to the better weapon and better
trained aviator.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org