Flying Slow

Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?
When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
prompting by a CFI in the next seat? When is the last time you spent
some diligent time doing stalls and the full range of them with your
aircraft? Are you honestly comfortable with your abilities? I know I
have to think about it every time I go fly and always find some fault
with my performance.
In a previous post it appeared I aggravated some pilots or CFI's with
saying I felt many pilots didn't know how to fly slowly these days. I
have seen a slow errosion of what used to be basic pilot skills and
level of performance with too many pilots compared with acceptable
standards not that many years ago. Now if that won't open a bucket of
worms I'll be surprised.
Fact is, just making the FAA minimums doesn't necessarily make you safe
or even a good pilot.
Care to weigh in on the issues?
I'll be polite in my responses in accordance to the way they are
presented to me. No axe to grind, no ego to inflate (its big enough
already thank you) just a sincere desire to make pilots think a little
more about what they are doing when they go flying. You need to make
your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and avoid repetition.
Ol Shy & Bashful

..... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?

Jim
A lot of my flying is just as you describe it. I frequently show
students how to fly with zero indicated and discuss the reasons for it.
When they get it figured out they are a lot more relaxed flying in that
slow speed regime and pay more attention to other clues. Not uncommon
to have them do it under the hood as well.
There are no great mysteries about it all, or there shouldn't be. When
I fly with low time CFI's I often challenge them to show me precision
maneuvers with zero IAS and maintain standards. It helps them to see a
different level of performance and increased standards that many have
not been exposed to.
Take it a step further, while crop dusting, in the turns you are
frequently very deep in the stall region to the point the stall warning
is always going off. A lot of the pilots I have worked with just turn
it off so they aren't distracted by it and simpy fly the airplane by
feel. If that can be done safely by hundreds if not thousands of spray
pilots, why shouldn't that knowledge and ability be passed along as a
part of flight training? Please note: I am not saying it should be done
all the time but part of training so they can see how it can be
accomplished and safely.
I know of a number of fatal accidents that happened because a pilot
lost his IAS indications and crashed. That should never have happened
with proper training.
Were you referring to something specific? I'd enjoy an honest exchange
of information and experience.
Cheers
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful

The stall warning light in our Aztec is positioned right behind the yoke and
all but impossible to see during landing, so we don't really pay much
attention to it or bother to reposition ourselves so it is visible. The
buffet on the tail when approaching a stall is quite pronounced and easily
felt through the yoke and the seat of your pants. We keep our eyes outside
and concentrate on the power settings and the landing approach,
crosschecking the airspeed occasionally. My experience with airplanes
either without stall warning indicators or airspeed indicators that drop to
0 in slow flight, thus far, has been limited to a C170B and a SuperCub.
Both of which are very easy to fly by feel. I think they teach you to keep
your eyes out the windows instead of peeled on the instruments. Another
common airplane that is fun and highly maneuverable in slow flight is a
C182RG. I think the full flap landing configuration stall speed is 37kts,
but it won't indicate that correctly so the airspeed indicator isn't where
you want your eyes.
Jim

In the Aztec I fly, you can actually hear the relay driving the stall light
clicking on and off when you're on the "hairy edge". It's really subtle, but
once you're used to it, in my experience it's as effective as any horn I've
heard, and it doesn't scare the passengers (OK, OK, I've never tested the
last :-)).

You're absoloutly right about keeping your eyes out of the cockpit...
probably something I should stress more when I teach.

-Rob

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
The stall warning light in our Aztec is positioned right behind the yoke
and
all but impossible to see during landing, so we don't really pay much
attention to it or bother to reposition ourselves so it is visible. The
buffet on the tail when approaching a stall is quite pronounced and easily
felt through the yoke and the seat of your pants. We keep our eyes
outside
and concentrate on the power settings and the landing approach,
crosschecking the airspeed occasionally. My experience with airplanes
either without stall warning indicators or airspeed indicators that drop
to
0 in slow flight, thus far, has been limited to a C170B and a SuperCub.
Both of which are very easy to fly by feel. I think they teach you to
keep
your eyes out the windows instead of peeled on the instruments. Another
common airplane that is fun and highly maneuverable in slow flight is a
C182RG. I think the full flap landing configuration stall speed is 37kts,
but it won't indicate that correctly so the airspeed indicator isn't where
you want your eyes.
Jim

In the Aztec I fly, you can actually hear the relay driving the stall
light
clicking on and off when you're on the "hairy edge".

I always hear it when I do the pre-flight. (From the front of the left wing
you can look in the cockpit and see the light go on when you lift the stall
warning switch) But I've never tried to listen for that clicking during
stalls or on landing. Next time I go up, I'll give it a try.

Jim

You're absoloutly right about keeping your eyes out of the cockpit...
probably something I should stress more when I teach.

I did my tailwheel endorsement in a SuperCub. My instructor was a long time
ag-pilot that grew up with airplanes. Because the nose of the SC slants
downward you have to drop the nose below the horizon to recover, so he
taught me to first recover by dropping the nose below the horizon, then
check the wing with the horizon, then go back to the nose. Eyes always
outside comparing your airplane to the horizon. He taught stall entry the
same way, compare the wing to the horizon, learn the attitude, and feel the
airplane. Once you learn the attitude, you can keep it constant and fly
the SC along in and out of a stall all day long with only subtle control
changes.

Jim

On 14 Jan 2005 09:31:02 -0800, wrote in
.com::

Take it a step further, while crop dusting, in the turns you are
frequently very deep in the stall region to the point the stall warning
is always going off.

II RC, Part 23 specifies that the stall warning indicator is to become
active 5 knots before the stall.

Jim Burns wrote:
.... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

If the stall warning is of any use to you, you are not flying slow
enough. You need to be below the stall warning. Same for airspeed,
what possible use could the ASI be to sit there and hang on the prop?
All your indications come thru your ass on this one.

My citabria doesn't have a stall warning device. I never gave it much
thought until I read your post. I can't say that I miss it.
Dave
68 7ECA

Jim Burns wrote:
.... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...

Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?