CAP vs. GC Aux

Ronald Gardner wrote:

Yes CAP requires a lot of training! However in order to do the job
correctly and professionally it is the only way. You don't want to be a
yahoo do gooder that can't find a downed pilot that you should have found
and then try to explain it to the family why you failed.


Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The
Montana Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles
the search and rescue duties when needed. They have a training class
each September that teaches all the necessary things about SAR. No
stupid nomex suits when it's hot out either. Any licensed pilot in
Montana can take the class and when SAR is needed they now have a
database of qualified pilots all over the state that can be in the air
in a very short time.

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The Montana
Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles the
search and rescue duties when needed.

--------------------------------------reply-----------------------------------------------------

How is the alerting routed to the pilot's association? In CAP, it comes
from the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Langley. Other places
handle "Search and Rescue" or "Search and Locate" without CAP involvement.

What type of ground team coordination do you have in Montana? We always say
that we can search, but someone on the ground has to rescue. I flew a
mission last Thursday where the ground team was the local Sheriff's Deputies
and members of the volunteer fire department. CAP has adopted an Incident
Command response and multi-agency missions has become the norm.

Thanks,

Stephen

Hotel 179 wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message
...


Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The Montana
Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles the
search and rescue duties when needed.


--------------------------------------reply-----------------------------------------------------

How is the alerting routed to the pilot's association?
At CAP, it comes
from the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Langley. Other places
handle "Search and Rescue" or "Search and Locate" without CAP involvement.

Montana Aeronautics gets the call when the RCC decides to initiate SAR.
The RCC is not the only one to initiate it either, just one of
several.


What type of ground team coordination do you have in Montana? We always say
that we can search, but someone on the ground has to rescue. I flew a
mission last Thursday where the ground team was the local Sheriff's Deputies
and members of the volunteer fire department. CAP has adopted an Incident
Command response and multi-agency missions has become the norm.

It's all handled thru Montana Aeronautics. They will figure out who
best to handle the ground stuff. It may be the local sherriff, it may
be other SAR qualified pilots working on the ground. It depends on
where the wreck is believed to be. We have some pretty remote country
here, both in the mounatins and in the plains.

"Newps" wrote in message
...
.. We have some pretty remote country
here, both in the mounatins and in the plains.
-----------------------------------------------reply---------------------------------------------------

We have some pretty remote country here in Alabama....there's the one
mountain up in the north part of the state that is nearly 1500'. Some of
the beach in our area is so remote that you have to carry the beer cooler
nearly 200 yards before you reach the sand. Very unforgiving territory!

Stephen
Foley, Alabama

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions.

My impressions are that there is a lot of paperwork and beaurocratic BS
involved in CAP. I don't believe it's any different in other similar
organzations though. It's not for everyone, that's for sure.

There are quite a few hoops to jump through on your way to becoming a
mission pilot, but once you are there, you get to fly quite a lot. The
training and testing is not particularly hard either. Yeah, it will take
some time to complete the training, but not necessarily a year or two. I
would say that you could be a mission pilot in under six months if you have
the minimum hours and the squadron flies enough practice missions. Getting
the missions required is usually the bottleneck at our squadron. I feel the
need to say something........

I do get generally irritated by those who love to take pot shots at CAP. I
don't know where that comes from, but I wish it would stop. It's a good
organization made up of volunteers giving back to their community. We are
doing positive things for young folks as well. It's not perfect, but I just
don't understand why there's got to be some yahoo that comes on this
newgroup to tear down CAP whenever it's mentioned. There. I feel better.

We had a member who came from the CG Aux. He compared the two favorably and
didn't express a lot of misgivings about coming to CAP. He was a non-pilot
though.

Hope this helps.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

I'm also told that Nomex is 100% required for all missions. I guess we
had a CAP flight go down a while back and some guys burned. Of course,
just like anything else you can wear either the AF Nomex or the CAP
Nomex. CAP is blue, AF is olive, both feel great when its 110F outside

I'm not in CAP any more (too much paper work and politics, not
enough of actually doing anything useful). The crash you refer to
involved one of the guys in the squadron I was in then, and two
other guys from the local group.

The two other guys didn't make it, the guy from my squadron spent
a few months in the burn unit and was not able to regain use of
one of his hands. He was wearing nomex, but most of the serious
burns were on his face and hands. He was the back seat scanner,
and after getting out, tried to pull the two pilots out through
the flames. Nomex is only fire resistant, and not heat resistant.
It buys you a few seconds, but unless you are wearing a thick race
car driver style suit, you need to get out quick.

The plane they were looking for had crashed a week earlier and was
not found until two days after the CAP plane went down. No flight
plan was filed for the flight over the mountains, and the ELT did
not activate. The ELT not activating is typical of an actual crash.
When I was in CAP, and I doubt the stats have changed much, 99+%
of ELT signals were false alarms, and ELTs failed to activate in
~97% of crashes. In the 15 years I spent in CAP, I'm only directly[1]
aware of one ELT signal leading to an actual aircraft in distress[2].
Anecdotal evidence, but my experience doing the 2am search for the
UPS truck or other false alarms[3] made it pretty clear that in the
absence of an alert notice (ALNOT), an ELT signal was likely a
false alarm.

Plane being searched for:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...FA031& akey=1

CAP plane:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...GA029& akey=1


John
[1] I knew the guys that found the downed plane and the survivor.
[2] Setting the ELT off when moving the wreckage doesn't count.
[3] Many false alarms are not even actual ELT but are random
malfunctioning electronic devices (copy machines, computers,
fax machines, video games, pizza ovens)
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

I was in CG Aux in San Diego and found it to be an absolutely wonderful
experience. The members of the squadron were some of the finest and best
pilots I've ever been privileged to know. The social events were absolutely
great -- dinner at the officer's club at the local Navy base once a month,
parties on the slightest pretext, and other really good times. A minimum of
BS paperwork and a maximum of flight training and operations.

I joined CG Aux in Sacramento on the strength of my San Diego experience ...
what a mistake. Maximize the paperwork, minimize the flying, and if you
don't have a twin, you ain't in the old boy's club. A 182 is penny ante.
You got your CG bars and your CG wings in San Diego? Sorry, you get to go
through OUR little drill with reams of paperwork and busy work before we let
you in the door.

I have never been in CAP so can't comment on that.

Jim



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
(Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?

BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
uniform BX privs.

-Robert, CFI

Trent,
My view of the CAP is colored by the fact that about the only time I see
them is the cadets at OSH. Marching in formation, harness's loaded down
with loads of crap (200' of rope, I'd swear), etc. I can't help cracking
a smile or giving a chuckle when I see a bunch of them marching by.
OTOH, they do act like perfect normal teenagers/young people when they
are not on duty.
Someday, I'd like to ride along when they track down errant ELT's on the
ground. I watched them as they homed in on a piper that must have had
one on.

John

Robert M. Gary wrote:
I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
receive first.


BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
uniform BX privs.

-Robert, CFI


Do you mean PX instead of BX?
I get the impression that different CAP chapters (or whatever they are
called) vary greatly. A few years ago I went to a gathering of the local
group that was advertised in the paper as a "get to know the local CAP"
function. I expressed some interest, even commented that the various
training classes would be interesting and understood that a lot of steps
needed completion before I'd fly. Despite having more actual flying
experience than most of the members there, it became obvious that they
weren't interested in more pilots potentially taking away from their
flying fun. Another pilot got the same vibes. The group seemed more
interested in promoting their cadet program and strutting around in
their uniforms. I'm glad that other groups are not the same.

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:28:28 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

snip...

I have never been in CAP so can't comment on that.

Jim


I was in the CAP many years ago. It was great. I flew their L-16 for
practically nothing. Even nothing on missions.

A couple of years ago I went to some meetings and was ready to
re-join.

The people are still great, but I just couldn't stand the paperwork.
That is a shame, and it's nothing I can change.

What's even worse is that I don't agree with the way they fly their
airplanes. I cringe when I have a student in the pattern and have to
fit in with their 172s. They fly patterns that would make a 747 look
like it was flying an especially conservative pattern. Maybe that's
just their style, with 4 hour pre-flights and such, but I just don't
get it.

Mike Weller