Is it just me or does this seem a little close to the crowd?

James Sleeman wrote:
On Sep 20, 2:31 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:

In our opinion, this was a VERY close call and totally unnecessary.
Things are bad enough in the demonstration and display community this
year without a pilot like this one making it worse.
It's being investigated.

I believe that watching the videos alone isn't givng a clear picture
here. The airfield in question I suspect has geographical aspects
that provide the spectators a different perception of risk than that
which is actually present. Ie, the other side of the runway is lower
than the rest of the airfield. The aircraft parked on the flightline
also contribute a bit to the illusion I think.

The pass was certainly low and close to the crowd, but I don't think
it was too much lower than I've seen here in New Zealand from similar
heavies (727 and 757 from the RNZAF mainly).



The problem wasn't the low pass as much as the left bank without enough
pitch input to compensate for the lift loss.
He was extremely lucky, and I'm getting this from all over the world
from the guys who were there and in the know :-)
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Kyle Boatright wrote:

danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
staff or pilots.

Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their
parked aircraft at an unnecessary risk.

The spectators are usually laypersons and can't judge the risks, so it's
the organisator's and the pilot's responibility to protect them.
Contributing airshow pilots however can judge the risks (I would hope!),
and if they decide to deliberately stand there during a flyby, it's their
choice.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in
danger.

You can read, can't you? Where did I say it was their goal to endanger
themselves? It's their goal to entertain (and probably also a bit to show
off, I dare to assume), and to reach that goal, they accept to take risks.

BTW, they take routinely much bigger risks than that low flying airliner.
Flying inverted a couple of feet above the runway is *much* more risky,
yet done routinely at airshows and I've yet to see a post about that here.
Probably the most stupid thing done at airshows is the "inverted ribbon
cut", but you see it everywhere and nobody seems to care. E.g.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCbwRzgJLhk. In that particular video you also
see one low level pull in which the pilot nearly stalls the plane. Most
dangerous at that altitude, but people don't even realize the situation.
The same goes for those stupid low level flicks shortly after take off.
E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0KkqFf_bU Extremely risky, because in a
flick you have *never* 100% control. Yet nobody seems to care. But an
airliner flying low... wow, *this* is going to cause discussions! It
reminds me somewhat of the quality of certain newspaper reports which have
been discussed here on a regular basis.

BTW, I don't say that I like such displays. Actually I hate them, and I
don't attend airshows for that very reason. I do attend aerobatic
competitions, though, because they are flown at a safe altitude. Besides,
the flying there is mostly better (i.e. more precise), albeit less
spectacular.

bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which
put the public at risk.

You can read, can't you? It was my point that the public wasn't put at
risk.


The public WAS put at risk. Those spectators, some of whom may be pilots?
At risk. Anyone within a couple of miles of the airport? At risk. Clip a
wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
the airport.


Stefan

Kyle Boatright wrote:

wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
the airport.

Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

"Stefan" wrote

Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans writes:

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning?

It generally will not, precisely because of that momentum thing. Instead, it
will continue flying with a damaged wing tip and some perturbation of the
flight path and handling characteristics.

It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.

Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of aircraft
through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of physics
don't allow that.

Morgans wrote:
"Stefan" wrote
Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.

In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I
know who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting
in ground impact of the aircraft.
In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of
the aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote

In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I know
who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting in
ground impact of the aircraft.
In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of the
aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

A few years back, they were landing on 18 at OSH, and had everyone doing big
180 degree turns from downwind, to final. It was quite windy, and gusty,
and there was a pretty sizeable crosswind component.

The EAA B-17 came in, and right near the last part of his turn, he was a
little lower than he wanted to be. A particularly big series of gust came
up, and he ended up with his wingtip VERY near the ground.

The end result nearly had me soiling my pants. I thought for an instant
that I was going to witness a very bad event. As I recall, he actually hit
a runway (or taxiway) light with his wing tip. You can believe that was an
anxious moment for the pilot, and for everyone watching it.

I'm glad the outcome was just a dinged up wing, and no more. It could have
been very bad, indeed.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote

In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I know
who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting in
ground impact of the aircraft.
In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of the
aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

A few years back, they were landing on 18 at OSH, and had everyone doing big
180 degree turns from downwind, to final. It was quite windy, and gusty,
and there was a pretty sizeable crosswind component.

The EAA B-17 came in, and right near the last part of his turn, he was a
little lower than he wanted to be. A particularly big series of gust came
up, and he ended up with his wingtip VERY near the ground.

The end result nearly had me soiling my pants. I thought for an instant
that I was going to witness a very bad event. As I recall, he actually hit
a runway (or taxiway) light with his wing tip. You can believe that was an
anxious moment for the pilot, and for everyone watching it.

I'm glad the outcome was just a dinged up wing, and no more. It could have
been very bad, indeed.


Catching a tip can go many different ways with the physics. Sometimes
all you get is a scrape, but even then the angle would have to be fairly
flat and the ground flat as well; but most of the time when a sudden
ground contact catches a tip, especially in a turn, the low wing is
descending into the contact rather than glancing flat into it and the
result in that case can be VERY bad!
D

--
Dudley Henriques

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Morgans writes:

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and
starts spinning?

It generally will not, precisely because of that momentum thing.
Instead, it will continue flying with a damaged wing tip and some
perturbation of the flight path and handling characteristics.


You have no idea, do you?


It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd,
if it was spinning into the ground.

Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think
the insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
aircraft through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd?
The laws of physics don't allow that.

You really have no idea, do you?


Get your head out of your ass.

Oh wait, maybe not, Who'd want to look at our face?



Bertie

"Mxsmanic" wrote

Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
aircraft
through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of
physics
don't allow that.

GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !

DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !

YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.

YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.

YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.

GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Damn. There goes another thread, hijacked to hell.
--
Jim in NC