Incursion statement issued

On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:31:07 -0400, "John T" wrote in
: :

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message


Without a sectional of that end of the country, I have difficulty
appreciating the diversion. Could you describe it?

DC area including ADIZ and P-40:
http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/.../03-1-063x.jpg

Flight path:
http://tinyurl.com/8ow44

They weren't trying to avoid P-40 (Camp David airspace NW of Washington).
They were on a direct path to Lumberton, NC.

Thank you for the links.

The ADIZ is clearly marked on the sectional, so that it can't be
missed by any pilot using it. I wonder if the PIC was using an
expired, pre-ADIZ sectional, or any chart at all for navigation?
Given his apparent lack of recent flight experience, I wonder how long
it had been since he had flown in the area. Pitifully pathetic ...

Without more information, it's difficult to assign blame for the
inability to communicate. Certainly, your hypothesis is one possible
explanation, but I could think of others...

Larry, this is the worst baiting attempt I've seen from you. What frequency
do you think they requested first? Even if it wasn't a "standard"
frequency, what frequency *should* the pilot have tuned during an intercept
procedure? If *ALL* else fails, what frequency would you attempt to use?

Despite your protests above, two-way communication requires both
interceptor and interceptee radios to be tuned to the same frequency.
As a result, there is equal opportunity for each to cause
communications to fail.

As with your earlier analogy, the Florida MAC had *nothing* in common with
this issue.

In the military/civil mishap I mentioned, the military flight-lead
failed to correctly set his radio to the frequency he was given by
ATC, so it illustrates that military pilots are not infallible.

Of course, that's not true. If the C-150 had gotten closer to the
White House, it would have been downed.

Perhaps. The point remains the intercept pilots did not request nor were
granted permission (authority) to open fire at any point in this scenario.
Therefore, nobody had authority to shoot down the plane.

You've failed to consider government personnel positioned on the
ground.

Please cite the source of your assertion. Or is it just your guess?

Several news stories reported what I said. Show me otherwise.

Unfortunately, I am unable to provide a link to support what I heard
on the news. It was an interview with one of the F-16 pilots who
intimated that ground personnel were authorized to shoot down intruder
aircraft. Of course, the pilot couldn't explicitly reveal government
security policy, but it was clear from what he said, that if the
aircraft had come in closer proximity to the White House, it would
have been downed.

Define "worked". The inability to establish communications certainly
confirms that the system almost resulted in the death of two airmen.

No, it didn't. Their negligence almost killed them.

Absent the F-16s, nothing (but possible ground based weapons) would
have almost killed them.

Again, this should not in any way be construed as any kind of support for
the ADIZ, but I certainly wouldn't go flying around Nevada without knowing
*exactly* where I should *not* be. Likewise, if you're not familiar with
the DC area and the ADIZ procedures, do yourself (and the rest of us) a
favor and stay well clear.

Agreed.

(unfortunately, since this will probably bolster
various alphabet soup agencies around DC).

What is that supposed to mean?

It plays into the hands of various security agencies that want a much more
restrictive airspace around DC.

Oh, that alphabet soup.

I would think that it is VP Cheney who is the force behind the
repressive government stance in the name of security. Wasn't he the
principle drafter of the Patriot Act?

You have provided no evidence that the C-150 pilots were at fault for
the initial lack of communication. It's pretty clear the PIC was
negligent, but he deserves to be heard before conclusions are drawn.

Oh, please. Read their own statement:
"...our radio had been working during the flight, which we know, because we
were able to monitor other aircraft communications... [After turning
westbound] we were then able to establish two-way radio communication on the
original emergency frequency..."

Their radio suddenly worked after they turned 90 degrees and visually
verified they'd screwed the royal pooch. I'm not buying the idea that they
could not raise ANYbody on 121.5. Not in this area. Even *IF* the
Blackhawk crew had accidentally turned off that frequency, I guarantee
either the Citation, the F-16s, Potomac TRACON or one of the many aircraft
in the area listening to guard on COM2 would have heard and responded.

I see your reasoning now. I suppose any response from other aircraft
would depend on what was broadcast, but you have a point.

I doubt you're naive enough to honestly think *all* of the intercept aircrew
and everybody else in the area were not listening to 121.5.

I just try not to jump to conclusions without some supporting
evidence.