Israeli Air Force to lose Middle East Air Superiority Capability to the Saudis in the near future

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message
...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the
Arab
side to this day.

Matt, this is nonsence.

It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make the whole
topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.

See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov, published in
the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August 2001: it reveals
almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through the 1960s and 1970s.
Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy (currently senior test pilot at
Sukhoi) were there and have flown MiGs in Egyptian markings.

There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom
line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce Capabilty to fight
while IAF turned to ground support missions only at the end.

Even more nonsence.

The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s and that
was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They (the Egyptians)
went though a very painfull process of re-learning the basics of the
air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of Attrition. During this
process they re-wrote most of the Soviet combat manuals - especially those
for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In 1970 the Soviets still had the same
approach to the quesitons of gunnery training and air-to-air combat like
before the Six Day War. By 1972, however, even they started teaching the
Syrians accordingly (only not their own pilots).

Could you ask yourself why?

And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every IAF
Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for manually aimed
anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber machine guns on turrets,
destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.

This is laughable. Where is this from?

Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian "War
Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of Damascus, or?

Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.

The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against the SAM
batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were flown on the
morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s, two by ZSU-23-4s,
and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs in exchange.

The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e., there
are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.

Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according to
this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to Arab
experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.

Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important targets
that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth risking anything to
take out. The ones further south could be flown around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be reloaded
(about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore them and go for
strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that war when they were in
the way of that.

Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their forehead
trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know where these
should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5 ("Plan 5" or
something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe for the unit better
known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss in a single mission). Then
they learned the lesson and started flying interdiction strikes around the
Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt.
Nevertheless, their Skyhawks had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and
their losses (not only to the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were
staggering - until the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF
was free to maneuver.

Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark it is
totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes to boot. It
makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.

And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by accident?

If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78 Standard
ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late 1980s...

The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV, capable of
cruising at a very low speed for hours over the battlefield and then
targeting only the radars specifically programmed into its seeker head, by a
near vertical "kamikaze-style" dive on their antennas.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according to the
Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for proof of Soviet
Envolvement.

You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967, and
this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty. During this
war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and these took no part
in fighting against Israel at all.

The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the end of
the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought (actually) 1967-1973
(officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the pike in March 1970, when a
whole Soviet air defence divison was deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat
expelled most of the Soviet instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there
were not many of them left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped
with MiG-25Rs) was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and
flew only a handfull of sorties before the armistice.

Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets flew no
air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles, Noth Koreans,
Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British - did, just no Soviets.

BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war with
Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two were killed
while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying MiG-25s - all in air
combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot down while flying MiG-27 by
Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.

In exchange they shot down nothing.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585