First Time Buyer. Help!

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Ben Jackson wrote:

If you're "in PA" (instead of, say, CO)
most of the time the Turbo isn't going to matter at all.

Depends on where you're going. It will be real handy getting over the top
of the many
class-B airports in this area.


Which is generally how high? How bout the MEA's in the area?


--
"Flying an airplane is just like riding
a bike -- it's just a lot harder to put
baseball cards in the spokes" -- Capt. Rex Cramer

All of the things already mentioned. plus...

Establish the partnership agreement IN WRITING !.

Even if just between the 2 of you, in WRITING determine how expenses will be
handled, maintainence, what happens when things BREAK when YOU and they are
using it. There are 2 basic methods.

1: You estimate all costs ahead of time, divide by XX hrs of planned annual
use then charge an hourly rate accordingly. Most partnerships are done this
way. You determine that GAS will be always left to the tabs (or full). Any
more left in, is free for the next flyer. If expenses are more than what's
"in the bank", then you have one time assessments to meet the expenses.

2: You split everything 50/50. (My partnership is this way). All expenses
are split 50/50 each month EXCEPT GAS. When returning you leave the gas at
the tabs. The more you fly, the better for you. My partner and I get along
great and the plane is always in tip top shape. if something breaks when I'm
flying. I take it to the mechanic and we split the cost. Same for my
partner.



For the purchase contract, there is a good boiler plate in the AOPA website.
If youre not a member.. join. Use the title search service (cheap check to
be sure the seller is the ONLY owenr of the plane). I got insurance through
them too. Frist year was 1500, second 1000 (I got my instrument, partner has
ATP and 27000 hrs !).

Don't think the pre-buy will find EVERYTHNG. We had a good prebuy but
found some things later but we were happy with our purchase and still are.
If you can find it, buy it with the radios you want in it OR it has to be
such a good deal that you will put the radios in and have $ left over.
radio installation is not cheap. We put a GPS , NAV COM and audio panel.
The INSTALL bill alone was $3000. This was added to an IFR cert airplane !

Plan on 2-3000 each for unexpected repairs the first year.

GOOD LUCK.

BILL

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 20:23:49 -0500, "Bill" wrote:

Establish the partnership agreement IN WRITING !.

Even if just between the 2 of you, in WRITING determine how expenses will be
handled, maintainence, what happens when things BREAK when YOU and they are
using it. There are 2 basic methods.

1: You estimate all costs ahead of time, divide by XX hrs of planned annual
use then charge an hourly rate accordingly. Most partnerships are done this
way. You determine that GAS will be always left to the tabs (or full). Any
more left in, is free for the next flyer. If expenses are more than what's
"in the bank", then you have one time assessments to meet the expenses.

2: You split everything 50/50. (My partnership is this way). All expenses
are split 50/50 each month EXCEPT GAS. When returning you leave the gas at
the tabs. The more you fly, the better for you. My partner and I get along
great and the plane is always in tip top shape. if something breaks when I'm
flying. I take it to the mechanic and we split the cost. Same for my
partner.


Yes, absolutely! All this needs to be worked out in advance in writing
so that friends stay friends. What would be your opinion of a hybrid
here? I think some variable expenses should be prorated, but fixed
expenses should be split evenly. I mean, the hangar fee and annual
inspection for example, will need to be done regardless of who flies
more.

For the purchase contract, there is a good boiler plate in the AOPA website.
If youre not a member.. join. Use the title search service (cheap check to
be sure the seller is the ONLY owenr of the plane). I got insurance through
them too. Frist year was 1500, second 1000 (I got my instrument, partner has
ATP and 27000 hrs !).

I didn't know that AOPA offered a purchase contract. What a great
resource, one I'll look into more. Thanks!

Don't think the pre-buy will find EVERYTHNG. We had a good prebuy but
found some things later but we were happy with our purchase and still are.
If you can find it, buy it with the radios you want in it OR it has to be
such a good deal that you will put the radios in and have $ left over.
radio installation is not cheap. We put a GPS , NAV COM and audio panel.
The INSTALL bill alone was $3000. This was added to an IFR cert airplane !

Plan on 2-3000 each for unexpected repairs the first year.

Good advice. We had thought of setting funds aside for maintenance
and for an eventual overhaul, but not a cushion for first year
squawks.

GOOD LUCK.

Thanks!!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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The 3-way partnership that I am in (Cardinal RG '75) has a mixed form:

1- the fixed costs (insurance, tie-down, etc and $1000 against the
annual), we each pay in each month:
1/3 of the monthly amount each month
2- the variable costs, we each pay in each month:
$15 per tach hour for maintenance
$10 per tach hour for engine overhaul reserve
3- we leave the plane full of fuel (the oil and other expendables are
covered in #2)
4- extraordinary items (like this fall's paint job):
we have a special assessment, 1/3 each

One of us keeps the books, one is the maintenance honcho, and the
third deals with the insurance company.

We schedule by phone call (1 guy hasn't flown in almost 2 years, makes
it easy).

I have owned planes solo previously, this is my first partnership.
I have been in this for just over a year and am "happy as a hog in
slops" as the country phrase goes.

- Steve


On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 08:55:58 -0400, KayInPA
wrote:

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 20:23:49 -0500, "Bill" wrote:

Establish the partnership agreement IN WRITING !.

Even if just between the 2 of you, in WRITING determine how expenses will be
handled, maintainence, what happens when things BREAK when YOU and they are
using it. There are 2 basic methods.

1: You estimate all costs ahead of time, divide by XX hrs of planned annual
use then charge an hourly rate accordingly. Most partnerships are done this
way. You determine that GAS will be always left to the tabs (or full). Any
more left in, is free for the next flyer. If expenses are more than what's
"in the bank", then you have one time assessments to meet the expenses.

2: You split everything 50/50. (My partnership is this way). All expenses
are split 50/50 each month EXCEPT GAS. When returning you leave the gas at
the tabs. The more you fly, the better for you. My partner and I get along
great and the plane is always in tip top shape. if something breaks when I'm
flying. I take it to the mechanic and we split the cost. Same for my
partner.


Yes, absolutely! All this needs to be worked out in advance in writing
so that friends stay friends. What would be your opinion of a hybrid
here? I think some variable expenses should be prorated, but fixed
expenses should be split evenly. I mean, the hangar fee and annual
inspection for example, will need to be done regardless of who flies
more.

For the purchase contract, there is a good boiler plate in the AOPA website.
If youre not a member.. join. Use the title search service (cheap check to
be sure the seller is the ONLY owenr of the plane). I got insurance through
them too. Frist year was 1500, second 1000 (I got my instrument, partner has
ATP and 27000 hrs !).

I didn't know that AOPA offered a purchase contract. What a great
resource, one I'll look into more. Thanks!

Don't think the pre-buy will find EVERYTHNG. We had a good prebuy but
found some things later but we were happy with our purchase and still are.
If you can find it, buy it with the radios you want in it OR it has to be
such a good deal that you will put the radios in and have $ left over.
radio installation is not cheap. We put a GPS , NAV COM and audio panel.
The INSTALL bill alone was $3000. This was added to an IFR cert airplane !

Plan on 2-3000 each for unexpected repairs the first year.

Good advice. We had thought of setting funds aside for maintenance
and for an eventual overhaul, but not a cushion for first year
squawks.

GOOD LUCK.

Thanks!!

On 4-Apr-2004, Stephen N Mills wrote:

The 3-way partnership that I am in (Cardinal RG '75) has a mixed form:

snip

I have owned planes solo previously, this is my first partnership.
I have been in this for just over a year and am "happy as a hog in
slops" as the country phrase goes.

- Steve


I, too, have been in 3-way partnerships, in my case for a number of years
and with three different airplanes. We have always used a simple formula in
which all fixed and maintenance expenses are divided evenly and fuel
(returned to specific tank levels) is paid by the user. This works for us
because we each use the plane approximately the same number of hours per
year on average.

In my opinion, a GOOD partnership is the best compromise between cost and
availability, Our Arrow IV gets flown about 180 - 220 hrs/year, and even
with a hangar and meticulous maintenance we honestly figure our average
hourly costs are below what we would have to pay if we rented a comparable
airplane. But unlike renting, we have almost complete scheduling freedom.
With three owners each flying about 70 hours/year, conflicts are rare. We
now use an on-line scheduling system that makes things even simpler.

--
-Elliott Drucker

On your pre buy make sure you take a mechanic can check the avionics and
instruments in the pre buy its the only thing we did not check and during
the after purchurace inspection was deturmed that most all my instruments
needed replaced nice little $2,400 dent in the pocket book but what the hell
its only money we can always make more right.


"KayInPA" wrote in message
om...
Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from the end of aviationns

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 22:56:22 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:

On your pre buy make sure you take a mechanic can check the avionics and
instruments in the pre buy its the only thing we did not check and during
the after purchurace inspection was deturmed that most all my instruments
needed replaced nice little $2,400 dent in the pocket book but what the hell
its only money we can always make more right.

Thanks MRQB. I hope you're enjoying your new airplane!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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I recently read an article where the author recommended paying for an
annual versus a pre-buy inspection. That way, new parts and serviced
items are on the old seller and not the new owner. Which, as you found,
often seem to pop up when it's time for the annual on your new plane.

This certainly seemed like sound advice? Anyone care to make a counter
point?



On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 22:56:22 -0800, MRQB wrote:

On your pre buy make sure you take a mechanic can check the avionics and
instruments in the pre buy its the only thing we did not check and during
the after purchurace inspection was deturmed that most all my instruments
needed replaced nice little $2,400 dent in the pocket book but what the hell
its only money we can always make more right.

In article ,
Greg Copeland wrote:
I recently read an article where the author recommended paying for an
annual versus a pre-buy inspection.

My airspeed indicator wasn't checked during the annual. It wasn't even
checked during the prebuy inspection. I did take a test flight and saw
it go up and down, but if it had been intermittant I wouldn't have known.

I think the lesson here is that if you're going to be an airplane owner
you can't let a $2500 maintenance bill get you down. Buying one of the
least expensive production planes (and I think an older C-152 qualifies!)
doesn't change that. Somewhere between C-152 and pressurized, cabin class
twin that goes up an order of magnitude.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Greg Copeland wrote:

I recently read an article where the author recommended paying for an
annual versus a pre-buy inspection. That way, new parts and serviced
items are on the old seller and not the new owner. Which, as you found,
often seem to pop up when it's time for the annual on your new plane.

This certainly seemed like sound advice? Anyone care to make a counter
point?

You will find it very hard to get the old owner to agree to those terms. It is quite
possible to get an owner to agree to having the inspection be done by your mechanic
as an annual. The usual terms are that glitches found are discussed after the annual
and the existing owner is free to walk away if you try to leverage the price down too
much. In that case, your IA may not get to see the logs until after you purchase the
plane, and the new parts and serviced items are still probably on you.

As toecutter pointed out the last time this sort of thing was discussed, the IA will
have to make a written record of the glitches, but few owners would hand the actual
logs over under those terms. Another poster stated that his tactic is to allow the
mechanic to inspect the logs before inspecting the plane, while the owner keeps the
logs during the aircraft inspection. When I sold my Cessna, I held the logs and the
IA did not touch them until after the deal was done.

In my case, the owner wanted the inspection to be an annual just because he wanted a
full year before doing it again. It only cost him about $100 more than getting a
pre-purchase done.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".