Criminal Prosecution for TFR Bust?

On 15 Nov 2003 20:34:24 -0800, Doug wrote:

600 interned in Guantanamo Bay (15 fewer than a month
ago (gee I wonder where those 15 went? slit?))

there was a TV documentation on a German TV station about Guantanamo Bay.
They interviewed 2 (or more) released people in Afghanistan. Both have been
imprisoned while there was collected headmoney for them paid by US folks
(CIA, military, ??)

in German: http://www.spiegel.de/sptv/magazin/0...260710,00.html

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:46:20 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:

in German: http://www.spiegel.de/sptv/magazin/0...260710,00.html

Interesting. For free, the usual unsupported dreck. For a couple of
bucks (for me, that would be the charge for the articles plus the bank
charges to process dollars into euros) you can have the full context.

I'll offer a translation, best I can, in all cases the word
translation choices are mine:

(begin translation)

660 prisonsers now subsist in the high-security prison called "Camp
Delta" at the Guantanamo Bay Marine base. Among them is a Turk, Murat
Kurnaz, who was born and raised in Bremen (Germany). Without the
chance for a trial, he waits for his release, or at least some
official charge.

AP

Prisoners in an apparantly disenfranchised place: Camp Delta Inmates

This military prison is located in Cuban jurisdiction, and is
therefore outside the reach of American justice. The prisoners are
charged with being "illegal combatants," which is an elegant
equivocation for the total loss of justice. No inmate knows what the
future holds for him. Either they receive no due process and stand to
wait, rotting in prison for years to come, or they'll receive charges
that could mean the death penalty.

68 of these prisoners were released in the last 18 months. Karin
Assman spoke with some of them for SPIEGEL TV, and got a look at
Guantanamo from the inside.

(end translation)

Go ahead, Spiegel, tell us how you *really* feel!

I note that for a holding prison which (I'm told, and those pictures
seem to show) feeds and clothes the inmates, and gives them
opportunity to exercise their religion (note that those flourescent
prison outfits come with *head cover*), within the constraints of the
prison.

Perhaps SPIEGEL TV would serve us all better by examining something
like the French prison system, or that of, say, Saudi Arabia. In
Saudia Arabia, I'm told, the prisoners give law enforcement a hand
from time to time. Literally.

And in any case, the term is "enemy combatant," and is a *correct*
term for a combatant who operates against an army outside the
strictures of the Geneva Convention.

None of that page, of course, makes the claim that Martin made, namely
that there were bounty hunters involved in collecting the enemy
combatants. Presumably the allegations are made in the TV program? If
so, by whom? And what would be wrong with that in a war zone?

Es geht schon, Martin. Ein paar hier koennen auch Deutsch, auch wenn
unsere Tastaturen es nicht koennen!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

In article ,
Robert Perkins wrote:

This military prison is located in Cuban jurisdiction, and is
therefore outside the reach of American justice. The prisoners are
charged with being "illegal combatants," which is an elegant
equivocation for the total loss of justice. No inmate knows what the
future holds for him. Either they receive no due process and stand to
wait, rotting in prison for years to come, or they'll receive charges
that could mean the death penalty.

68 of these prisoners were released in the last 18 months. Karin
Assman spoke with some of them for SPIEGEL TV, and got a look at
Guantanamo from the inside.

I've never understood the problem here.

Presumably as soon as the war is over -- meaning either the other side
surrenders, or a peace treaty is negotiated and signed between the two
sides -- official representatives of the other side can show up and take
their prisoners home. Until then. they sit.

(Barring the possible use of a procedure sometimes used in earlier wars
-- including our Civil War, I think -- in which prisoners give their
word and bond not to fight again in the conflict, and are released to go
home to their farms and families.)

What's not to like? Did prisoners of war on either side in WW II have
the right to demand trials and due process? (including prisoners from
neutral nations who might have volunteered to fight on either of the
sides)

The current war is obviously an unusual war, but equally obviously it's
a war. Does the fact that the other side's mode of fighting it falls
miles outside the Geneva Convention somehow give them the right to
increased, rather than perhaps reduced, protections when taken prisoner?

"AES/newspost" wrote in message
...

I've never understood the problem here.

Presumably as soon as the war is over -- meaning either the other side
surrenders, or a peace treaty is negotiated and signed between the two
sides -- official representatives of the other side can show up and take
their prisoners home. Until then. they sit.



So, you expect bin laden to come and pick up his prisoners?

This has been declared a war against "terror." There is no formal "other
side."

"AES/newspost" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Perkins wrote:

This military prison is located in Cuban jurisdiction, and is
therefore outside the reach of American justice. The prisoners are
charged with being "illegal combatants," which is an elegant
equivocation for the total loss of justice. No inmate knows what the
future holds for him. Either they receive no due process and stand to
wait, rotting in prison for years to come, or they'll receive charges
that could mean the death penalty.

68 of these prisoners were released in the last 18 months. Karin
Assman spoke with some of them for SPIEGEL TV, and got a look at
Guantanamo from the inside.

I've never understood the problem here.

Presumably as soon as the war is over -- meaning either the other side
surrenders, or a peace treaty is negotiated and signed between the two
sides -- official representatives of the other side can show up and take
their prisoners home. Until then. they sit.

(Barring the possible use of a procedure sometimes used in earlier wars
-- including our Civil War, I think -- in which prisoners give their
word and bond not to fight again in the conflict, and are released to go
home to their farms and families.)

What's not to like? Did prisoners of war on either side in WW II have
the right to demand trials and due process? (including prisoners from
neutral nations who might have volunteered to fight on either of the
sides)

Sorry dude, they are not POWs. Our government has said that numerous times.

The current war is obviously an unusual war, but equally obviously it's
a war. Does the fact that the other side's mode of fighting it falls
miles outside the Geneva Convention somehow give them the right to
increased, rather than perhaps reduced, protections when taken prisoner?

Maybe you need to factor in the absurdity that we attacked them and now
expect them to fight by our rules. Somehow I don't think that approach is
going to work.

Guantanamo Bay is *not* Cuban jurisdiction. We claim and exercise full
extra-territorality there. If a serviceman there commits a crime he is
charged, tried, and punished under U.S. law.

Dave Reinhart


Robert Perkins wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:46:20 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:

in German: http://www.spiegel.de/sptv/magazin/0...260710,00.html

Interesting. For free, the usual unsupported dreck. For a couple of
bucks (for me, that would be the charge for the articles plus the bank
charges to process dollars into euros) you can have the full context.

I'll offer a translation, best I can, in all cases the word
translation choices are mine:

(begin translation)

660 prisonsers now subsist in the high-security prison called "Camp
Delta" at the Guantanamo Bay Marine base. Among them is a Turk, Murat
Kurnaz, who was born and raised in Bremen (Germany). Without the
chance for a trial, he waits for his release, or at least some
official charge.

AP

Prisoners in an apparantly disenfranchised place: Camp Delta Inmates

This military prison is located in Cuban jurisdiction, and is
therefore outside the reach of American justice. The prisoners are
charged with being "illegal combatants," which is an elegant
equivocation for the total loss of justice. No inmate knows what the
future holds for him. Either they receive no due process and stand to
wait, rotting in prison for years to come, or they'll receive charges
that could mean the death penalty.

68 of these prisoners were released in the last 18 months. Karin
Assman spoke with some of them for SPIEGEL TV, and got a look at
Guantanamo from the inside.

(end translation)

Go ahead, Spiegel, tell us how you *really* feel!

I note that for a holding prison which (I'm told, and those pictures
seem to show) feeds and clothes the inmates, and gives them
opportunity to exercise their religion (note that those flourescent
prison outfits come with *head cover*), within the constraints of the
prison.

Perhaps SPIEGEL TV would serve us all better by examining something
like the French prison system, or that of, say, Saudi Arabia. In
Saudia Arabia, I'm told, the prisoners give law enforcement a hand
from time to time. Literally.

And in any case, the term is "enemy combatant," and is a *correct*
term for a combatant who operates against an army outside the
strictures of the Geneva Convention.

None of that page, of course, makes the claim that Martin made, namely
that there were bounty hunters involved in collecting the enemy
combatants. Presumably the allegations are made in the TV program? If
so, by whom? And what would be wrong with that in a war zone?

Es geht schon, Martin. Ein paar hier koennen auch Deutsch, auch wenn
unsere Tastaturen es nicht koennen!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On 15 Nov 2003 20:34:24 -0800, (Doug)
wrote in Message-Id: :

All part of the George Bush Airport Police State, using the SS to do
it, in this case. 1000 arrested in the USA after 9/11, most held and
never charged, 600 interned in Guantanamo Bay (15 fewer than a month
ago (gee I wonder where those 15 went? slit?)). Hey, I want America
safe, but I also want it FREE. Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft, no American
Freedom safe from their police powers. Sorry to be political, if the
Dems were doing it I'd be hollering just as loud. Wake up America!

And how would you propose that the American people and we pilots
regain our freedom? What action should be taken against government
officials who violate constitutional guarantees?

I would like to know what constitutional guarantees of yours have been
violated?

Everyone seems to complain about the the patriot act, and the enemy
combatents in Cuba, but they really have no evidence that the patriotic act
has ever violated their rights, or anyone they know.

They all shout about others, and repeat rumors, with no evidence.

As far as the enemy in Cuba, some of you will just never get it. If you
release them, they will kill any Americans they can at their first chance.
So we keep them until the war is over.

You say what war? You have to be blind, 1993 WTC, Africa Embassies, USS
Cole, 9/11, that is the war. We just finally got the balls to take the
fight to them, and stopped worrying about public opinion. We need to
protect this country, and we don't need anyone's permission to do it.


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On 15 Nov 2003 20:34:24 -0800, (Doug)
wrote in Message-Id: :

All part of the George Bush Airport Police State, using the SS to do
it, in this case. 1000 arrested in the USA after 9/11, most held and
never charged, 600 interned in Guantanamo Bay (15 fewer than a month
ago (gee I wonder where those 15 went? slit?)). Hey, I want America
safe, but I also want it FREE. Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft, no American
Freedom safe from their police powers. Sorry to be political, if the
Dems were doing it I'd be hollering just as loud. Wake up America!

And how would you propose that the American people and we pilots
regain our freedom? What action should be taken against government
officials who violate constitutional guarantees?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On 15 Nov 2003 20:34:24 -0800, (Doug)
wrote in Message-Id: :

All part of the George Bush Airport Police State, using the SS to do
it, in this case. 1000 arrested in the USA after 9/11, most held and
never charged, 600 interned in Guantanamo Bay (15 fewer than a month
ago (gee I wonder where those 15 went? slit?)). Hey, I want America
safe, but I also want it FREE. Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft, no American
Freedom safe from their police powers. Sorry to be political, if the
Dems were doing it I'd be hollering just as loud. Wake up America!

And how would you propose that the American people and we pilots
regain our freedom? What action should be taken against government
officials who violate constitutional guarantees?



On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:06:34 GMT, "Tom Hyslip"
wrote in Message-Id: :

I would like to know what constitutional guarantees of yours have been
violated?

So your point is, that if I haven't PERSONALLY experienced a lack of
due process, it hasn't happened?

Talk to Craig Prouse (a regular contributor to this newsgroup).
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...3D%26hl %3Den

From: "Craig Prouse"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Pakistani? Pilot? No soup for you.
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:09:25 -0700
Message-ID:

A friend from college has been beside himself for the last few
days. His 65-year-old father, a naturalized American citizen of
Pakistani origin, and holder of a private pilot certificate, has
been secretly detained.




http://reason.com/sullum/061402.shtml
But by locking him up indefinitely without bringing charges, the
government is setting a precedent for preventive detention of any
U.S. citizen whom the president decides to put on the country's
enemy list.

This maneuver makes due process disappear through misdirection and
circular reasoning: If you're a terrorist, you're an "enemy
combatant." Therefore, the government does not have to prove
you're a terrorist.




http://www.heraldonline.com/local/st...-2670334c.html
The backlash has been building steadily since the passage of the
Patriot Act in October 2001. Among the provisions opponents find
most troubling:

• The FBI has broader authority to seek information on citizens'
reading habits at libraries and bookstores, as well as financial
information and medical records without having "probable cause."
Instead, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court, a secret
body that oversees investigations against terrorism suspects, must
deem information being sought as relevant in a criminal probe.

• Some search warrants can be kept secret for 90 days, allowing
the government to go into someone's home or business without the
target knowing it.

• In some cases, people can be jailed for providing aid to groups
the government links to terrorism..

The secrecy extends beyond the Patriot Act, particularly when it
comes to air travel. Some people trying to board airplanes have
been detained without explanation, many apparently because their
names are similar to those on secret government watch lists.

Yet details of how someone ends up on such a list -- or how many
people are on it -- remain secret.

How much freedom to give up?

Some are asking whether they're being forced to give up too many
personal freedoms.

"Does this sound like the United States, or does this sound like
1950s Russia?" asked Tim Armstrong, a 56-year-old Vietnam War
veteran and ad salesman for a radio station in Juneau, Alaska,
where citizens are banding together against the federal
government's new efforts.

It's a question being asked by liberals and conservatives.

"This whole thing scares me," said Robert Corbin, a former
president of the National Rifle Association. "I believe very
strongly in the Bill of Rights, and I don't want anybody to screw
around with it."

Corbin noted his group, widely viewed as conservative, has found
common ground with the ACLU over the Patriot Act.

"I'm just afraid that the Patriot Act is like the war on drugs,
where people are willing to give up their freedoms for security,"
he said. "And I'm not."

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows
the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the
blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no
need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry,
infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of
their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is
what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On 15 Nov 2003 20:34:24 -0800, (Doug)
wrote in Message-Id: :

All part of the George Bush Airport Police State, using the SS to do
it, in this case. 1000 arrested in the USA after 9/11, most held and
never charged, 600 interned in Guantanamo Bay (15 fewer than a month
ago (gee I wonder where those 15 went? slit?)). Hey, I want America
safe, but I also want it FREE. Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft, no American
Freedom safe from their police powers. Sorry to be political, if the
Dems were doing it I'd be hollering just as loud. Wake up America!

And how would you propose that the American people and we pilots
regain our freedom? What action should be taken against government
officials who violate constitutional guarantees?



On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:06:34 GMT, "Tom Hyslip"
wrote in Message-Id: :

I would like to know what constitutional guarantees of yours have been
violated?

So your point is, that if I haven't PERSONALLY experienced a lack of
due process, it hasn't happened?

Talk to Craig Prouse (a regular contributor to this newsgroup).

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...3D%26hl %3Den

From: "Craig Prouse"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Pakistani? Pilot? No soup for you.
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:09:25 -0700
Message-ID:

A friend from college has been beside himself for the last few
days. His 65-year-old father, a naturalized American citizen of
Pakistani origin, and holder of a private pilot certificate, has
been secretly detained.

ONCE AGAIN, A FRIEND OR RELATIVE OF A FRIEND.


http://reason.com/sullum/061402.shtml
But by locking him up indefinitely without bringing charges, the
government is setting a precedent for preventive detention of any
U.S. citizen whom the president decides to put on the country's
enemy list.

This maneuver makes due process disappear through misdirection and
circular reasoning: If you're a terrorist, you're an "enemy
combatant." Therefore, the government does not have to prove
you're a terrorist.




http://www.heraldonline.com/local/st...-2670334c.html
The backlash has been building steadily since the passage of the
Patriot Act in October 2001. Among the provisions opponents find
most troubling:

. The FBI has broader authority to seek information on citizens'
reading habits at libraries and bookstores, as well as financial
information and medical records without having "probable cause."
Instead, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court, a secret
body that oversees investigations against terrorism suspects, must
deem information being sought as relevant in a criminal probe.


CALLED JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT, NO DIFFERENCE THEN GOING TO ANY OTHER COURT
AND HAVING THE RECORD SEALED
WHICH IS DONE I ALMOST EVERY CASE


. Some search warrants can be kept secret for 90 days, allowing
the government to go into someone's home or business without the
target knowing it.


SEE ABOVE

. In some cases, people can be jailed for providing aid to groups
the government links to terrorism..

AIDING AND ABETING THE ENEMY. NO DIFFERENCE THEN PROVIDING MONEY TO
HITLER IN WW2

The secrecy extends beyond the Patriot Act, particularly when it
comes to air travel. Some people trying to board airplanes have
been detained without explanation, many apparently because their
names are similar to those on secret government watch lists.


NOT DETAINED WITHOUT EXPLANATION, STOPPED BECAUSE THEIR NAME WAS ON
A WATCH LISTED. INTERVIEWED TO
ENSURE THIS PERSON IS NOT THE TERRORIST ON THE LIST AND THEN LET GO.
SMALL DELAY TO PROTECT THE USA

Yet details of how someone ends up on such a list -- or how many
people are on it -- remain secret.

How much freedom to give up?

Some are asking whether they're being forced to give up too many
personal freedoms.

"Does this sound like the United States, or does this sound like
1950s Russia?" asked Tim Armstrong, a 56-year-old Vietnam War
veteran and ad salesman for a radio station in Juneau, Alaska,
where citizens are banding together against the federal
government's new efforts.

It's a question being asked by liberals and conservatives.

"This whole thing scares me," said Robert Corbin, a former
president of the National Rifle Association. "I believe very
strongly in the Bill of Rights, and I don't want anybody to screw
around with it."

Corbin noted his group, widely viewed as conservative, has found
common ground with the ACLU over the Patriot Act.

"I'm just afraid that the Patriot Act is like the war on drugs,
where people are willing to give up their freedoms for security,"
he said. "And I'm not."

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows
the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the
blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no
need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry,
infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of
their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is
what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar


AMUSSING, BUT NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE TRUTH.