Why fly fast approaches?

"EDR" wrote in message
...

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?


Fast approaches are good when there is fast traffic behind you. But fast
landings are another matter entirely.

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:09:18 GMT, EDR
wrote:

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

Why do you want to hold it on the ground that long? I own a '67
PA28-235 and couldn't tell you the actual rotation speed. When it
wants to fly, let it fly! I do know it is well below 65Kts though
cause I've seen the airspeed pass through it as I'm gaining altitude.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."
I'd rather 70kts as a rule of thumb. The only advantage this gives
you is slightly better control effectiveness, otherwise use what
you're comfortable with.


When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.
Puppycock! (And many other expletives as well). Arguments can be made
that dirt and grime accumulate and make an airplane heavier. No one
considers the fact that radios way back when weighed a heck of a lot
more than they do now. I took about 30 lbs. of extraneous crap and
wiring out of my plane when I bought it. IMO it's a trade off and his
rule is not a good one. How's it Feel at the speed you're flying. If
it feels good great, if it doesn't feel good adjust a little bit.


I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.
If you start your "round out" earlier you can still land on the
threshold, but then you'd be going below his required speeds. So, yes
listening to him wastes runway needlessly.


What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
He's a 141 rat that needs to learn how to fly a wing, and not the
airspeed indicator. (I know I'm being hard and don't know the guy,
but what you wrote doesn't make sense.)

The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?
This is not (yet) required for completion of a BFR.

zatatime wrote in message . ..
Puppycock! (And many other expletives as well). Arguments can be made
that dirt and grime accumulate and make an airplane heavier.

Then the owner should clean it . Dirt and grime inside the
cockpit and fuselage hold moisture and promote corrosion.

I took about 30 lbs. of extraneous crap and
wiring out of my plane when I bought it. IMO it's a trade off

It's a very valid point that airplanes "age" as they get older,
and that the actual weight of the plane may be heavier (or lighter)
than calculated.

But if one suspects that the empty weight on the W&B is inaccurate,
it seems to me that the correct "fix" is not to tell all the pilots
flying it to T/O and land at faster speeds -- it's to WEIGH THE PLANE
and calculate a new, accurate empty weight.

There's also the point that if one stalls the plane and the stall
speed differs substantially from 'book' (or at less than gross weight,
calculated value), one can then adjust -- pretty close to your point
"fly the wing" except that I suggest exploring the envelope at altitude
first, in a new-to-the-pilot plane....

Cheers,
Sydney

On 1 Jul 2004 07:03:22 -0700, (Snowbird)
wrote:

(If you suspect a problem..)
WEIGH THE PLANE
and calculate a new, accurate empty weight.

There's also the point that if one stalls the plane and the stall
speed differs substantially from 'book' (or at less than gross weight,
calculated value), one can then adjust -- pretty close to your point
"fly the wing" except that I suggest exploring the envelope at altitude
first, in a new-to-the-pilot plane....

I completely agree.

z

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

Cowardice on the instructor's part. Much of the art of flying
requires that our brain rule our emotions. The instructor appears to
have surrendered to fear.

I think the instructor's reasoning is faulty. Why would the stall speed
increase as the airplane ages? If it has increased measurably, then
something needs to be repaired.

I don't even teach student pilots to fly faster than necessary. It is too
easy for a student to lose control on a fast approach, especially if he
balloons or bounces.

C J Campbell opined

I think the instructor's reasoning is faulty. Why would the stall speed
increase as the airplane ages? If it has increased measurably, then
something needs to be repaired.

Bugs, dents, dirt would all change the shape of the wing. How much that would
change the stall speed is an open question. Perhaps the FAA could be useful
and do some research.

I don't even teach student pilots to fly faster than necessary. It is too
easy for a student to lose control on a fast approach, especially if he
balloons or bounces.





-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

Ash,

Perhaps the FAA could be useful
and do some research.


IMHO, that research would be totally useless. From common experience
with the planes we all fly, what effect do you expect? Zilch, nada,
niente. So why bother to do research?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert opined

Ash,

Perhaps the FAA could be useful
and do some research.


IMHO, that research would be totally useless. From common experience
with the planes we all fly, what effect do you expect? Zilch, nada,
niente. So why bother to do research?

Because for a sort period of time, the FAA will not be doing something else
which will make life worse for us.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

If you fly the same plane regularly you're going to figure out in
short order what indicated speeds work for what weight. Make note
of them and adjust accordingly. When using 1.3Vso also keep
in mind how the speeds are listed in the POH. If calibrated airspeed
then you'll have to adjust to the correct indicated airspeed if needed
if you're calculating it from the book stall speed.


"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
C J Campbell opined

I think the instructor's reasoning is faulty. Why would the stall speed
increase as the airplane ages? If it has increased measurably, then
something needs to be repaired.

Bugs, dents, dirt would all change the shape of the wing. How much that
would
change the stall speed is an open question. Perhaps the FAA could be
useful
and do some research.

I don't even teach student pilots to fly faster than necessary. It is too
easy for a student to lose control on a fast approach, especially if he
balloons or bounces.





-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?