First NASA form filed

Paul Folbrecht wrote:



As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

Actually it wouldn't have been. In order for you to be on the runway,
from the controllers point of view, you have to cross the white edge
line on the runway. The hold short lines don't determine anything for a
controller.



And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care.

At my last facility, GFK, we didn't really know exactly where they were.
They serve no purpose to a controller.

I've heard both ways on this, and I do know for a fact that they matter
a lot to at least some controllers. Seems to me that they certainly
ought to - these are the official demarcations of the runway, right, and
*part* of the responsibility of controllers is to enforce the FARs (to
report violations of) at the facilities at which they work (not that I
want them to persecute pilots, of course).

Actually it wouldn't have been. In order for you to be on the runway,
from the controllers point of view, you have to cross the white edge
line on the runway. The hold short lines don't determine anything for a
controller.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
Seems to me that they certainly
ought to - these are the official demarcations of the runway, right,

I am only interested in what happens within the white lines. You roll
over the hold short line by an airplane length it doesn't change what I
do one iota, as long as you remain outside the white lines.


and
*part* of the responsibility of controllers is to enforce the FARs

Enforcement is FSDO's job. The only time ATC helps out is if a loss of
separation occurs or some other near dangerous thing happens. If
controllers called FSDO everytime you bend an FAR there would be tens of
thousands of cases each year.

I take it from your reply that you _are_ a controller - I did not
realize that. Obviously, you know better than I what controllers pay
attention to and what they don't.

Newps wrote:



Paul Folbrecht wrote:
Seems to me that they certainly

ought to - these are the official demarcations of the runway, right,


I am only interested in what happens within the white lines. You roll
over the hold short line by an airplane length it doesn't change what I
do one iota, as long as you remain outside the white lines.


and

*part* of the responsibility of controllers is to enforce the FARs


Enforcement is FSDO's job. The only time ATC helps out is if a loss of
separation occurs or some other near dangerous thing happens. If
controllers called FSDO everytime you bend an FAR there would be tens of
thousands of cases each year.

I don't see that you technically did anything wrong. A clearance to taxi
to someplace on the airport would clear you across any runways except
if that clearance was to taxi TO a runway .. then you couldn't cross it
to get to the departure end without specific clearance. Normally they'll
tell you to hold short of a runway if they want you to. Such as "taxi to
the ramp .. hold short of runway 33". Now that said I never cross
a runway without a simple "confirm Nxxxxx is cleared across runway xx."
I've never had a controller get testy over it and would imagine they
appreciate the heads up with all the emphasis on avoiding runway incursions.


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).