Hull/Liability Insurance Recommendations

Rick,

Don't discuss limits with Jim. He's very "touchy" about discussing them.


Trip

In article , says...

Jim,

Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

It sounds as if your broker has shopped the market. The companies you
referenced are all very reputable. The concern I have is that the
quote you have just seems too low by a large factor. I would be
surprised to find satisfactory coverage for a Cessna 182 for under
$2,000 a year.

All the best,
Rick

Jim Weir wrote in message news:5kuom0lellcqee5m6nn2o44i9v272
...
The BlueOnBlue 182 is coming up for insurance (hull & liability) renewal in
about fifteen days. I'm very careful to get competitive quotes using the same
coverage. So far it is:

Phoenix $805
AIG $920
Global $939 (current carrier with no renewal discount)


Any suggestions on another quote that can be done inside a week?

Any COMMENTS, good or bad, about the two lowest bidders?

Jim


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Rick...

I appreciate you and Trip's concern about my coverage, but I've structured my
finances to pay a minimum of taxes, insurance, and still give me and my family
peace of mind that we are doing what is required of us. I would argue that your
advice of $1M smooth is NOT valid in all cases. I am also very aware of what my
hull is worth and what it would cost me to replace it. I have absolutely no
intention of over-insuring anything I own.

"Satisfactory" is in the mind of the satisfactee.

Jim


(Rick Durden)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Jim,
-
-Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
-is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
-(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
-inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
-$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
-adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?
-
-It sounds as if your broker has shopped the market. The companies you
-referenced are all very reputable. The concern I have is that the
-quote you have just seems too low by a large factor. I would be
-surprised to find satisfactory coverage for a Cessna 182 for under
-$2,000 a year.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim,

I wanted to give you a comparision of my insurance on a PA29-235 which
is probably comparable to your C182 if in the same age range. I pay
$900 a year.


Trip

In article , says...

Rick...

I appreciate you and Trip's concern about my coverage, but I've structured my
finances to pay a minimum of taxes, insurance, and still give me and my family
peace of mind that we are doing what is required of us. I would argue that your
advice of $1M smooth is NOT valid in all cases. I am also very aware of what my
hull is worth and what it would cost me to replace it. I have absolutely no
intention of over-insuring anything I own.

"Satisfactory" is in the mind of the satisfactee.

Jim


(Rick Durden)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Jim,
-
-Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
-is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
-(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
-inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
-$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
-adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?
-
-It sounds as if your broker has shopped the market. The companies you
-referenced are all very reputable. The concern I have is that the
-quote you have just seems too low by a large factor. I would be
-surprised to find satisfactory coverage for a Cessna 182 for under
-$2,000 a year.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Rick Durden wrote:

Jim,

Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

It sounds as if your broker has shopped the market. The companies you
referenced are all very reputable. The concern I have is that the
quote you have just seems too low by a large factor. I would be
surprised to find satisfactory coverage for a Cessna 182 for under
$2,000 a year.

I have never paid anywhere near $2K for my 182. Even Avemco, which is
never in the ballpark, has never given me a quote over $2K. But then I
also don't have smooth coverage. Don't need it, won't pay for it.

"Rick Durden" wrote in message
m...
Jim,

Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?


I would say depends on his assets,

(Rick Durden) wrote in message om...
Jim,

Those rates sound extremely low for a Cessna 182 of any vintage. What
is the hull value you are insuring? What is the liability coverage
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

It sounds as if your broker has shopped the market. The companies you
referenced are all very reputable. The concern I have is that the
quote you have just seems too low by a large factor. I would be
surprised to find satisfactory coverage for a Cessna 182 for under
$2,000 a year.

Really? My current policy, through Travers & Associates, cost $736
for a 182B. IIRC it has always been in that ballpark in recent years.
I'll dig out more details if desired.

Perhaps it helps that I have owned/flown this plane for 26 years,
and the only claim was for flood damage (wheel bearings). I have,
however, changed providers several times.

David Johnson

(Rick Durden) wrote
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

In an ideal world, everyone would be covered for millions for
everything. Ideal for attorneys, that is.

The best advice I ever got about liability insurance came from a
retired aviation attorney who had practiced in GA for 20 years. He
had just recently signed me off for my glider checkride, and was
suggesting that because of my prior experience as a skydiving
instructor, I needed to start working on my CFI-Glider. Since he was
a man of means and protection of personal assets was certainly an
issue for him, I asked him about liability insurance, specifically for
instruction. What developed was a fairly long and mostly one-sided
conversation on aviation liability insurance in general, the high
points of which I am going to relate here.

The first thing he told me was that he was telling me the dirty little
secret of the profession - something a practicing attorney was not
likely to tell me.

Here it is - all liability insurance does is make you a target. It is
VERY difficult to get an aviation attorney excited about taking a case
against an uninsured person unless that person has extensive assets -
and now we're talking about someone with enough assets that he is not
getting his risk management advice over the internet or via any other
informal method - he has people on retainer. Or, to put it another
way - if you need hull coverage, you really don't need liability
coverage. There is a reason why you can't buy hull coverage without
buying liability.

There are all sorts of reasons for this. Juries have a tendency to
make large awards (that are usually reduced later) against
corporations, but not so much against individuals. In most cases,
liability is tough to determine, so the suit is a long shot. And most
importantly, while an insurance company will usually settle a suit, an
individual will usually fight it out - and even if he loses, there's
usually little or nothing to collect for the plaintiff's lawyer
because the defendant's lawyer got it all. Of course the defendant's
lawyer could advise the defendant to settle - meaning give the money
to the plaintiff's lawyer. Yeah, that's likely.

It's also a little known fact that it's general insurance company
policy not to write a check to the plaintiff unless he accepts that
check as a complete settlement. If the plaintiff chooses not to
accept, the insurance company will defend the claim. Given the choice
between a possibly inadequate but sure thing settlement (of which the
plaintiff's lawyer will get a cut) and putting time and effort into a
case that may pay nothing, and will involve trying to get blood from a
stone, what do you suppose the plaintiff's lawyer will recommend?

So I asked this retired attorney what kind of aviation liability
insurance he carried. After all, he routinely flew and instructed in
aircraft he didn't own. The answer was none. I asked him what he
would do if he bought an aircraft, and he replied that he would get
the minimum he could get in order to have hull insurance, and
suggested I do the same. And so I have.

Michael

Excellent advice!!!

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Rick Durden) wrote
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

In an ideal world, everyone would be covered for millions for
everything. Ideal for attorneys, that is.

The best advice I ever got about liability insurance came from a
retired aviation attorney who had practiced in GA for 20 years. He
had just recently signed me off for my glider checkride, and was
suggesting that because of my prior experience as a skydiving
instructor, I needed to start working on my CFI-Glider. Since he was
a man of means and protection of personal assets was certainly an
issue for him, I asked him about liability insurance, specifically for
instruction. What developed was a fairly long and mostly one-sided
conversation on aviation liability insurance in general, the high
points of which I am going to relate here.

The first thing he told me was that he was telling me the dirty little
secret of the profession - something a practicing attorney was not
likely to tell me.

Here it is - all liability insurance does is make you a target. It is
VERY difficult to get an aviation attorney excited about taking a case
against an uninsured person unless that person has extensive assets -
and now we're talking about someone with enough assets that he is not
getting his risk management advice over the internet or via any other
informal method - he has people on retainer. Or, to put it another
way - if you need hull coverage, you really don't need liability
coverage. There is a reason why you can't buy hull coverage without
buying liability.

There are all sorts of reasons for this. Juries have a tendency to
make large awards (that are usually reduced later) against
corporations, but not so much against individuals. In most cases,
liability is tough to determine, so the suit is a long shot. And most
importantly, while an insurance company will usually settle a suit, an
individual will usually fight it out - and even if he loses, there's
usually little or nothing to collect for the plaintiff's lawyer
because the defendant's lawyer got it all. Of course the defendant's
lawyer could advise the defendant to settle - meaning give the money
to the plaintiff's lawyer. Yeah, that's likely.

It's also a little known fact that it's general insurance company
policy not to write a check to the plaintiff unless he accepts that
check as a complete settlement. If the plaintiff chooses not to
accept, the insurance company will defend the claim. Given the choice
between a possibly inadequate but sure thing settlement (of which the
plaintiff's lawyer will get a cut) and putting time and effort into a
case that may pay nothing, and will involve trying to get blood from a
stone, what do you suppose the plaintiff's lawyer will recommend?

So I asked this retired attorney what kind of aviation liability
insurance he carried. After all, he routinely flew and instructed in
aircraft he didn't own. The answer was none. I asked him what he
would do if he bought an aircraft, and he replied that he would get
the minimum he could get in order to have hull insurance, and
suggested I do the same. And so I have.

Michael

IMHO, you should have enough to cover your assets. Then you should
make sure you have enough to cover any future earning you don't want to
give up. If you have $1-2M and are an average guy you should have enough.


Trip



In article , says...

(Rick Durden) wrote
(if you are getting less than $1 million smooth you may very well have
inadequate coverage as the "$100,000 sublimit" policies mean only
$100,000 is available per injured/deceased person, which is not
adequate for such a claim and puts your assets at risk)?

In an ideal world, everyone would be covered for millions for
everything. Ideal for attorneys, that is.

The best advice I ever got about liability insurance came from a
retired aviation attorney who had practiced in GA for 20 years. He
had just recently signed me off for my glider checkride, and was
suggesting that because of my prior experience as a skydiving
instructor, I needed to start working on my CFI-Glider. Since he was
a man of means and protection of personal assets was certainly an
issue for him, I asked him about liability insurance, specifically for
instruction. What developed was a fairly long and mostly one-sided
conversation on aviation liability insurance in general, the high
points of which I am going to relate here.

The first thing he told me was that he was telling me the dirty little
secret of the profession - something a practicing attorney was not
likely to tell me.

Here it is - all liability insurance does is make you a target. It is
VERY difficult to get an aviation attorney excited about taking a case
against an uninsured person unless that person has extensive assets -
and now we're talking about someone with enough assets that he is not
getting his risk management advice over the internet or via any other
informal method - he has people on retainer. Or, to put it another
way - if you need hull coverage, you really don't need liability
coverage. There is a reason why you can't buy hull coverage without
buying liability.

There are all sorts of reasons for this. Juries have a tendency to
make large awards (that are usually reduced later) against
corporations, but not so much against individuals. In most cases,
liability is tough to determine, so the suit is a long shot. And most
importantly, while an insurance company will usually settle a suit, an
individual will usually fight it out - and even if he loses, there's
usually little or nothing to collect for the plaintiff's lawyer
because the defendant's lawyer got it all. Of course the defendant's
lawyer could advise the defendant to settle - meaning give the money
to the plaintiff's lawyer. Yeah, that's likely.

It's also a little known fact that it's general insurance company
policy not to write a check to the plaintiff unless he accepts that
check as a complete settlement. If the plaintiff chooses not to
accept, the insurance company will defend the claim. Given the choice
between a possibly inadequate but sure thing settlement (of which the
plaintiff's lawyer will get a cut) and putting time and effort into a
case that may pay nothing, and will involve trying to get blood from a
stone, what do you suppose the plaintiff's lawyer will recommend?

So I asked this retired attorney what kind of aviation liability
insurance he carried. After all, he routinely flew and instructed in
aircraft he didn't own. The answer was none. I asked him what he
would do if he bought an aircraft, and he replied that he would get
the minimum he could get in order to have hull insurance, and
suggested I do the same. And so I have.

Michael

"TripFarmer" wrote in message
...
IMHO, you should have enough to cover your assets. Then you should
make sure you have enough to cover any future earning you don't want to
give up. If you have $1-2M and are an average guy you should have enough.


Trip

You cannot cover your assets with liability insurance. Best you can do is
hope they go after your liability insurance and leave you assets alone.
Fact is your assets are fair game in addition to what liability insurance
might provide.