Cheap sailplanes

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41b3545f$1@darkstar...
Robert Ehrlich wrote:

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."


In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel
from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan
Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example
of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five."

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is
reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30
years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as
sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not
aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century
ago.


Had a interesting chat with someone who posts here infrequently the other
evening. He had some concern about the plain English language of the sport
pilot/LSA tending towards the draconian. IOW, unless specifically
permitted, it's prohibited, unlike the current FARs, where unless
specifically prohibited, it's permitted. The next revisions may be onerous.

Frank Whiteley

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money.

Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have to work harder
than they did 30 years ago.

Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the average age of the
members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70. It may be slightly
younger at weekends, but not by very much.

We need a new approach.

Ian





--
Mike Lindsay

In article ,
Mike Lindsay wrote:

Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30

I'll continue to say that some leadership opportunities in gliding clubs
(and all volunteer orginizations, for that matter) should give priority to
the LEAST qualified person. A flight committee headed by the LEAST
experienced CFI (who's willing to do it), the social committee headed by
the NEWEST member of the club. Then all the members agree to give them as
much support as possible. I've found the "leader" then asks for lots of
help, there is lots of interaction, the newer "leader" has more energy
than the more jaded members, and if for some reason things go wrong or
the rules are dumb, there is less entrenchment by the "leader," and
more forgiveness for the "leader."

At Avenal, when I was the newest CFI, I was very surprised when I asked
our operations guy and local DPE, Dan Gudgel, about our syllabus posted
on line and I suggested some changes, including "narrow runway training."
He said that the document could certainly use some updating, and welcomed
me to write an improved one.

Another senior instructor, Harold Gallagher, was talking about standardizing
our training. We talked for a while, and he essentially said "great, we've
discussed this, and you've talked to the other guys, and it'd be great if
you put something together and I bet we'd all love to use it as a guide."

True leadership involves being a good teacher, and a supportive follower
too. Leaders don't always lead from the front; in my experience they often
lead from the middle. The ideas and energy comes from the front, the
support and wisdom comes from the middle. Let the young whippersnappers
provide ideas and energy, while the others give wisdom (only when asked for),
support, and steady lifting.

and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century.

The wrap around shades are great for the open cockpit (like the
Blanik or PW-2) and the baggy pants come in VERY handy around the
Halloween, thanksgiving, and christmas holidays :P

Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

One of the best run organizations I've ever seen is the Monterey Bay
99's. This womens' pilot organization gives out scholarships,
some big and some of just a few hundred dollars, to young and entering
women pilots. When these pilots make CFI, they then often give free
instruction to new scholarship winners. Really makes a buck go farther...

Creating this kind of incentive track seems like a real good idea.

Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the average age of the
members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70. It may be slightly
younger at weekends, but not by very much.

Hmmm...ours is 30-40. Maybe the family BBQs, easygoing rules, encouragement
of X-C, "fun" mini-races, etc. is paying off.

Of course having a private gliderport helps...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
don't know it.

Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
activity.

The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
their own.

Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
panel probably intrigues many of them.

I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.


And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
will probably get even quieter at the glider port.




At 15:00 04 December 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
Brand,

George wouldn't be proud. Saddened perhaps. Alas, 1984
came and went
and no one's the wiser. Of course, that was the point
of book. If you
enjoyed 1984, you might read his short essay... 'Shooting
an
Elephant.' I'm sure you can google it up. We don't
give Orwell nearly
enough credit, thinking of him more a sci fi writer
than the keen
social observer he was.

I guess what's truly disheartening is that we keep
making the same
mistakes. The least we can do is make new ones, if
for nothing other
than variety's sake.

What has this to do with gliding? Some of you will
get it.

Gotta go. Time to feed the proles.





(Brad) wrote in message news:...
who would be prouder to hear this Joeseph Goebbles
or George Orwell?

Brad



'Roger Worden' wrote in message news:...
'Steve Hill' wrote in message
...
I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue
to air our
sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved
with WINGS??

From AOPA ePilot today:

DISCOVERY CHANNEL TURNS IN ITS WINGS
Discovery Communications will, on January 10, rename
its Discovery Wings
Channel the Military Channel. Stories will focus
on the troops, their
equipment, the Iraq war, and a behind-the-scenes
look at actual military
operations. The channel won't abandon aviation forever,
however. It will
still cover topics like military jet fighters (a
show scheduled for January
28) and the world-famous Blue Angels flight demonstration
team (scheduled
for March 18).

Stewart Kissel wrote:
Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
don't know it.

You have read "1984", have you not?

If not, then run -- do not walk -- to your local library and demand a
copy. It is the prequel to the 21st Century as we are living it.


Jack

Stewart Kissel wrote:
Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
don't know it.

Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
activity.

The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
their own.

Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
panel probably intrigues many of them.

I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.

Don't be so sure. I paraglide, mostly because of the cost and also
convieniance. You will find the better paraglider pilots all have a
bigger interest in soaring as a whole, and respect and recognise the
skill soaring requires over any other sport (you have to read inivisible
weather systems, learn about areodynamics and so on). By soaring I mean
paragliding/hanggliding/sailplanes. Im sure when I have the money and
stability, I will move in to sailplanes.

Justin

And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
will probably get even quieter at the glider port.

There are several sailplanes for sale in the UK for less than £2000 complete
with trailers ets. There's no time like the present!

Ian


"Justin Fielding" wrote in message
news:1102698925.a47248e379dbf1a123dc73f01a18448b@t eranews...
Stewart Kissel wrote:
Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
don't know it.

Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
activity.

The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
their own.

Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
panel probably intrigues many of them.

I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.

Don't be so sure. I paraglide, mostly because of the cost and also
convieniance. You will find the better paraglider pilots all have a
bigger interest in soaring as a whole, and respect and recognise the skill
soaring requires over any other sport (you have to read inivisible weather
systems, learn about areodynamics and so on). By soaring I mean
paragliding/hanggliding/sailplanes. Im sure when I have the money and
stability, I will move in to sailplanes.

Justin

And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
will probably get even quieter at the glider port.

tango4 wrote:
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily halt
the decline.

Absolutely. The market will work for gliding as it does with most
things. Already, I know of three 25-30 year old glass gliders bought by
young men from deceased estates for trivial prices (a perfectly good
PIK-20B for $12000, for example). Cost isn't/won't be the problem.
Real prices will go on falling as the number of available gliders grows
at a faster rate than the number of buyers.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

No we don't. It won't die with us. There will always be a few young
men who are attracted to soaring. Many will come to it later though
because its attractions are available in other sports as well these days.

Meanwhile old committee members are needed to steward the assets of the
clubs. What the young get for free won't be appreciated and the
embarrassing sight of old farts offering metaphorical boiled lollies to
teenagers is to be avoided at all costs. When they win the fight over
our dead bodies they'll actually care for what they get their hands on.
What will make youngsters want to be part of soaring is us grey heads
refusing to let them have it. The ones it will be worth passing it on
to will be those who care enough to fight us for it.

And we're doing a great job at stewardship. The major threat to the
existence of many clubs is property development attempting to drive us
from our airfields. How useful are teenagers in fighting those battles?
A committe of 20-somethings would lose at the first round and what
would be left then? Give me a bunch of old men who have the patience
and persistence and experience and rat-cunning to win these civic battles.

Certainly the young will take over in the end - but why should I/we make
our sport unpleasant for ourselves by changing all the things about it
which the majority of us enjoy? I'm only here once the same as the
young. Why should their preferences have priority? They can have it
later and remake it any way they like. They can buy my gliders cheaply
too. But not yet.

Graeme Cant

http://www.ardice.com/Regional/Ocean...es/A/Adelaide/

Graeme Cant wrote:

Absolutely. The market will work for gliding as it does with most
things. Already, I know of three 25-30 year old glass gliders bought by
young men from deceased estates for trivial prices (a perfectly good
PIK-20B for $12000, for example). Cost isn't/won't be the problem.
Real prices will go on falling as the number of available gliders grows
at a faster rate than the number of buyers.

Corollary when the sport will be almost dying.

--

Michel TALON