ILS Rwy 20 at Marion, ILL

Thanks for everyone's help. Great source of information.

And, Yes, the FSS briefer read the NOTAM about the unlit towers. They
also read a notam about MSA from Pioneer increasing to 3200 for ILS RWY
17. I then specifically asked if the ILS was in service. The answer
was "yes".

Even when I asked center about the GS problem they were not aware of
it.

Since I was snowed / iced in at Wichita for the next day, I went to the
FSS and Tower and asked them what I had done wrong. I wanted to find
out what I should have done in order to not make this mistake again.

I found that there are two references I will forever use: the biweekly
notams booklet and A/FD. If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam booklet.

There is a good reference on Avweb on this issue: The Notam Mess:
http://www.avweb.com/news/system/183201-1.html

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

Did the briefer specifically say that the ILS was operational, or did
he just fail to mention the GS OTS notam?

"gregscheetah" wrote in message
oups.com...

And, Yes, the FSS briefer read the NOTAM about the unlit towers. They
also read a notam about MSA from Pioneer increasing to 3200 for ILS RWY
17. I then specifically asked if the ILS was in service. The answer
was "yes".


Well, that is a correct answer albeit incomplete.



Since I was snowed / iced in at Wichita for the next day, I went to the
FSS and Tower and asked them what I had done wrong. I wanted to find
out what I should have done in order to not make this mistake again.

I found that there are two references I will forever use: the biweekly
notams booklet and A/FD. If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam booklet.


Not true, there is an online version of the biweekly notam booklet:

http://www.faa.gov/ntap/

On 23 Feb 2005 06:56:49 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:

If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam bookle


A fact that any decent instructor should have covered with you during
your training.

On 23 Feb 2005 06:56:49 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

FWIW, the Jepp package dated 2/16 (the 25 Feb 05 cycle) has a new
sheet for KMWA with the ILS portion shown as NA.

"gregscheetah" wrote in
oups.com:

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

The Jepp NavData NOTAMS show this:

Marion, ILS Rwy 20, VOR or GPS Rwy 2 and NDB or GPS Rwy 20 procedures
unusable.
ILS Rwy 20 procedure not in database (Rwy2/20 extended - MAP not coincident
with rwy end).

The NavData NOTAMS are issued weekly.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

"gregscheetah" wrote in message
oups.com...

I recently had a similiar experience at Ponca City where the FSS said
the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing. Center cleared
me for the ILS-17 approach. I queried about the lack of GS information,
they said all was well as far as they knew. About 3 miles past the
OM,Center asked me if I wanted to switch to the LOC approach. I
didn't, so Missed approach, no GS, minimum conditions, slight icing
conditions.
Anyway, after landing and reviewing what I had done wrong, I found that
the FSS will not read you all the notams unless you specifically ask.
DUATS will not provide all the notams.

During the review of the flight, I read the notam that was similar to
the one below, I read all the FAA abbreviations list, and I can not
find what, exactly, "S-ILS" means. Just like the notam below, I don't
see where the ILS is OTS? What does "S-ILS" mean?


Greg

FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS
RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP
4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN


"S-ILS" means "Straight-in ILS", you'll find it on page A1 of the NACO
charts.

The controller is going to clear you for an ILS whether or not the GS is
working. If the GS is out of service he's supposed to say so when the
approach clearance is issued; "Cleared I-L-S Runway one seven approach,
glideslope unusable." Naturally, he'd have to know that it was out of
service. He should have been aware of the NOTAM.

You say the FSS said the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing.
I would take that statement to mean fully operational, including the
glideslope. Navaids are assumed to be operational unless there's a NOTAM
saying they aren't. FSS isn't in a position to definitely say that it is
operational unless they've checked NOTAMs.

gregscheetah wrote:

DUATS will not provide all the notams.


Seems like it actually does. Perhaps the information was posted after
your flight but the DUATS standard briefing has:

!MWA 12/002 MWA 20 ILS GP OTS

!FDC 5/1241 MWA FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL.
ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A...
S-ILS MINIMUMS NA.
DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM.
DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM.


If anything, DUATS seems to provde too much info and the principal risk
is missing the wheat for the chaff...

I feel much safer with DUATS and the other sources on the Internet than
depending on a carbon based unit reading some of the same info to me
over the phone...