Advice On Flying Clubs

It all depends on the club, of course. But potential benefits a

1: No minimum rental fee for long trips - this makes an airplane
actually useful.

2: Better maintanance, since the club members think of the airplane as
their own.

3: Social aspects of flying with the same people, and getting spouses
together (and getting spouses to fly, and land, the plane themselves)

4: Ability to participate in decisions that affect the fleet.

5: Appreciation of your equity share (if the club operates that way)
makes it easier to consider upgrades and additional aircraft.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Beckman wrote:

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

Advantages over owning:

o Diversity of aircraft
o Spreading risk (ie. one aircraft down doesn't
mean you don't fly)
o Spreading cost risk (ie. one airplane having an expensive
year can be offset by other aircraft under certain
circumstances)[1]

Advantages over renting:

o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
the care and feeding of aircraft.
o Price
o No daily minimums

Disadvantages over owning:

o Scheduling, as opposed to just "getting up and
going flying" (not valid if in a partnership)

Disadvantages over renting:

o Having to deal with care and feeding of aircraft.
o No FBO to whom one can simple give the airplane and
say "solve the problem"

In my mind, a good club operates like a large partnership. But I'm biased
in that that's how my club operates (we're all share owners, all "care and
feeding" tasks are volunteer positions, etc).

- Andrew

[1] This is a tough issue. We try to keep all aircraft paying
for themselves so as to avoid retaining an undesirable plane.
But for identical aircraft, we do pool (since there's no reason
to assume one 172 is less desirable than another identical 172).

Pooling helps...and it's a good reason in my opinion for a larger
club: so as to have more pool w/o giving up diversity. That is,
I'd rather a club with two pairs of identical aircraft and twice
the membership than a smaller club with only one of each of two
types of airplane.

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Jay Beckman wrote:
Advantages over renting:

o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
the care and feeding of aircraft.
o Price
o No daily minimums

* NO RENTERS INSURANCE NEEDED! The club insurance covers you, and the
insurance company won't subrogate against you. That alone can pay your
monthly dues.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I didn't know it was impossible when I did it."

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:yP_Ge.205090$Qo.190101@fed1read01...
Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

My thanks to all...

Good thoughts and will fuel a list of questions to ask..

Regards,

Jay

Clubs vary a lot. Paul Tomblin gives you a lot of good questions to
ask but misses the most important ones, in my opinion:

What are the rules? And I mean all of them. Read them carefully.
Remember, eventually they will probably be applied against a member in
the worst possible way. That member may be you. Be sure you're OK
with that.

How are rules made? Do all rules have to be approved by a majority of
the membership? Or just the majority of those who vote, and if the
latter what constitutes a quorum? Or can club officers make rules? Do
they like to?

The primary problem with clubs is that they tend to have more rules
than FBO's, and WAY more rules than the insurance company will impose
on you in a partnership. On the other hand, it's harder to walk away
from a club than an FBO because you're invested.

Michael

In a previous article, "Michael" said:
What are the rules? And I mean all of them. Read them carefully.
Remember, eventually they will probably be applied against a member in
the worst possible way. That member may be you. Be sure you're OK
with that.

Only if you're a total dick. We've got rules like "minimum hours on
weekends" that have only been applied once in the 10 years I've been with
the club, and only because there was a dick who was abusing the club -
booking the most popular plane for several weeks in the middle of the
summer, and then only flying it for one day or not flying it at all. So
we enforced the rule we had about minimum hours, and then instituted some
new rules about maximum scheduling.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I'd sooner volunteer to admin every Windows box at $ORKPLACE (and it's a
biiiig place) than think for one second that I could understand the thought
process of a teenage female. -- David P. Murphy

Michael wrote:

The primary problem with clubs is that they tend to have more rules
than FBO's, and WAY more rules than the insurance company will impose
on you in a partnership. On the other hand, it's harder to walk away
from a club than an FBO because you're invested.

My experience comparing rules in clubs and FBOs doesn't match yours. But
perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean.

FBOs are far more strict about utilization rules (which can be expressed as
additional fees like daily minimums) than any club I've seen, for example.

However, I would agree that clubs can have rules that are more *complex*
than an FBO. We've a point system for scheduling, for example, while
Paul's club has some explicit time periods when a booking may or may not be
made. An FBO just wants to get planes flying (or at least charging), but a
club may have additional motivations and the rules are designed to achieve
those.

Paul's club's scheduling rules were expressed very clearly, and with the
motivation behind them explained. My club's rules are simpler (in my
opinion {8^), but the linkage between the rule and the goal harder to
express. I plan to try to explain our rules in a style similar to that
used by Paul's club's website (thanks, Paul {8^).

There are rules w/in a club for matters that would never arise at an FBO.
We've a policy covering the movement of aircraft to where maintenance is to
be performed. An FBO wouldn't have renters involved in this, so no rules
would be required.

So...depending upon what you mean, I might agree with you. I don't think
clubs tend to be more strict, but I do think that the rules need to cover
more ground than found at an FBO.

The one possible exception is that we've currency rules on our complex
aircraft that are more strict than those on any of the other aircraft. But
this was something we accepted to bring down our insurance rate. I suppose
an FBO might [be forced to] make a similar choice.

I do agree with your advice about knowing the rules. I'd add that one
should learn how the club handles upgrades, what insurance it has, what it
requires of a member, how easily one can depart, what the club does in the
face of an accident or incident, how aircraft problems are addressed, how
well maintained the aircraft are (even "little" things like landing lights,
which was my pet peeve at one local FBO), etc.

- Andrew

My experience comparing rules in clubs and FBOs doesn't match yours. But
perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean.

You are.

FBOs are far more strict about utilization rules (which can be expressed as
additional fees like daily minimums) than any club I've seen, for example.

That's exactly what I don't mean. Those are fees, not rules. They
don't tell you what you can and can't do - they merely impose a
strictly financial cost. They don't tell you that you can't make a
particular flight - they merely tell you how many dollars you will pay.
Nothing else.

The one possible exception is that we've currency rules on our complex
aircraft that are more strict than those on any of the other aircraft.

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking
about. Some other club examples (all real):
Maximum crosswind limit 10 kts - google for this one, it was discussed
here.
No formation flying in club airplanes.
No aerobatics in club planes. Even the aerobatic ones. Not unless the
designated aerobatic instructor approves. And there is no designated
aerobatic instructor, and hasn't been in years.
No night flying without an instrument rating. No flights more than 200
miles from home without an instrument rating.
You get the idea. It's not that FBO's don't ever have such rules -
some do - but it's a lot cheaper (and often politically easier) to be
checked out at several FBO's and just choose the ones with rules that
work for your flight than it is to be a member of several clubs.

But these are just the explicit rules. Clubs can also have safety
committees - ones that can decide to ground you, make you fly with an
instructor, whatever - because they decided you weren't safe. Of
course an FBO can also tell you that you're not welcome to rent there
anymore - but you have little or nothing invested in the FBO. Also,
the FBO has to make that decision carefully - it affects his
pocketbook. Not so the club safety committee.

Paul made a statement - that the rules will only be enforced against
you in the worst possible way if you're a complete dick. Just remember
- YOU don't get to decide if you're a complete dick. Someone else
does. Someone who may not like you.

Michael

Michael wrote:

[...]
Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking
about. Some other club examples (all real):
Maximum crosswind limit 10 kts - google for this one, it was discussed
here.
No formation flying in club airplanes.
No aerobatics in club planes. Even the aerobatic ones. Not unless the
designated aerobatic instructor approves. And there is no designated
aerobatic instructor, and hasn't been in years.
No night flying without an instrument rating. No flights more than 200
miles from home without an instrument rating.
You get the idea. It's not that FBO's don't ever have such rules -
some do - but it's a lot cheaper (and often politically easier) to be
checked out at several FBO's and just choose the ones with rules that
work for your flight than it is to be a member of several clubs.

But these are just the explicit rules.

Okay. I'll defer to your experience that these exist, but I have to say
that they don't in the (small set of) clubs of which I'm aware.

The only rule of that sort in our club is a limit on XCs to 300 miles for
members in their first months (one month? three? I don't recall).

On the other hand, FBOs with which I've experience, make certain airports
off limits (ie. LDJ), prevent grass field operations, etc.

Not so the club safety committee.

True, but I've never heard of this abused. And there are rules which govern
the operation of at least our safety committee...no such limits exist on
what an FBO may do to your ability to fly their planes.

Paul made a statement - that the rules will only be enforced against
you in the worst possible way if you're a complete dick. Just remember
- YOU don't get to decide if you're a complete dick. Someone else
does. Someone who may not like you.

There are rules which govern how rules may be used against one too. We'd a
case where one particular person - with the best of intentions, as it
happens - exceeded his authority. The person against whom the authority
was used complained properly, and the situation was fixed.

There's no question that a club - or even a partnership - will have more
structure than owning one's own. But there are some advantages to the club
beyond the financial.

My favorite is diversity of aircraft. My ideal club will have something
like Super Decathalons and Cessna 206s or Cherokee 6s or such. One for
fun; one to pack up the family and go.

There also risk management; you can still fly if some planes are down for
maintenance. That's tough to do if there's only one plane.

And of course there's the load-sharing involved combined with the
educational experience of maintaining and managing planes with people that
have been doing it longer.

Still, I agree with your statement about knowing the rules.

- Andrew

Smaller clubs may be better on rules.

Ours say you have to comply with the FARs and use our approved
instructors.

And you can't fly if you're behind in your dues.

You can be voted out if you act like a jerk. To anybody's knowledge,
that's happened exactly once. In 59 years. We're pretty sure of that
because a member who moved away and sold out about a year ago is the
son of a founder. Several members have belonged for more than 20
years.

The club is a non-profit corporation.

There are 11 members and 2 planes. To join, you have to buy out a
current member and be approved by the rest of the members. You
negotiate the price of the membership with the person you're buying it
from.

Monthly dues are based on the club's fixed costs: hangar, taxes,
insurance, annuals, etc.

Hourly fees (tach time) are based on variable costs: fuel, engine
reserve, historical maintenance data, etc.

Booking is via Yahoo. Each plane has a Yahoo ID and password. You
log in as the airplane and make an entry on the airplane's calendar.

We have a '67 235. We just sold our '61 172B so we could buy either a
Tiger or a Challenger. To make up the difference, we assessed
ourselves an extra $100/month for 18 months.

The current thinking is that we won't buy a complex or a twin. Too
big a hit on maintenance and insurance, too hard to find a buyer when
somebody wants to sell a membership. One plane should be for
travelling, one should be a compromise between travelling and boring
holes in the sky.

Don