Neil Lawson of whiteplanes, died yesterday

This suggestion perhaps doesn't have relevance for
this particular accident. Your point is taken, and
you are right. I don't know if in this particular
case he was intending to photo the glider that hit
him or a different photo.

I think I was just expressing some helplessness that
this kind of thing happens at all, and trying to feel
like there is something I could contribute that might
help, even if it wasn't a good suggestion...

But yes, Bruce, I see your point, and may have strayed
off topic.

My God, though, the man took some astonishingly great
photos...thank you for the link.

At 06:00 11 August 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
In article ,
M B wrote:

Crazy idea: how about putting a whistle on the gear
door so when the
gear is down it whistles through the air? Also works
as a gear
indicator. I dunno, maybe not a great idea, but something.

As you sugesting that he didn't know the glider was
there? Becuase if
not then that suggestion is pretty irelevant to this
tragedy.

I don't think you get pics such as the following by
not knowing that the
glider is the

http://www.whiteplanes.com/gliders/gliders23.htm

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Mark J. Boyd

What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
personal agenda.

I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
where they are most definately needed. By the way,
for the record, here is my private email to you, which
I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
I gave you:

'John,

How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
know what actually happened, as you were not there-
so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
saying.


Jez Hood'


Now I'm just disappointed with you.



At 16:54 11 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
Jeremy,
I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
you used in your private E-mail to me.

I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
tell me just when is the best time to take action to
prevent the next needless tragidy?

JJ Sinclair

At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
shut up.



At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:

Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
He also said
the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
homicide. That's
right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
bystander. This
tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
was performing the
prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
gate because
that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.

The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
the guy responsible
and the competition was suspended.

How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
before this
outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
is abolished and
replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?

You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
operating his
aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
and that he wasn't
within 500 feet of a person, do you?

JJ Sinclair

wrote:
Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.

But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
finish at 50 ft
(per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
of people, man-made
objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
this accident?

By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
groundloop that
hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
too.

And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
been a pre-arranged
photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
photographer and the
pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
that has
happened.

Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
a deep breath and
go fix a glider or something.

Kirk
66

I also sent a private email, 17 minutes after JJ's original posting and
before any replies appeared on RAS. I said:

"JJ,

"For goodness sake stop it.

"You know as well as I do that the AAIB and the BGA acting together (which
they do) investigate and report accidents very thoroughly.

"PLEASE wait until we have the report.

"Regards,

"Bill."

This is his reply, 50 minutes after the original posting:

"Not much to investigate here, Bill. The pilot flew his ship into a
spectator. In the US he would be in violation of FAR's, ie, flew within 500
feet of a person, place or thing.

"I realize its in poor taste to drive a point home while the guy is still
warm, but its also in very poor taste to keep killing innocent people by
using a proven unsafe finish system.

"JJ"

When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all we
need to know about JJ.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Jeremy Hood"
wrote in message ...

What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
personal agenda.

I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
where they are most definitely needed. By the way,
for the record, here is my private email to you, which
I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
I gave you:

'John,

How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
know what actually happened, as you were not there-
so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
saying.

Jez Hood'

Now I'm just disappointed with you.

When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all
we need to know about JJ.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).

Bill,

I agree with you and Jez Hood about the way this incident has been
discussed. My only quarrel would be with "this tells us all we need to
know about JJ." It's more complicated.

I know JJ from the competition circuit here in the U.S. and from his
RAS postings and other communications. He justifiably enjoys the
respect of many. I suspect that his reaction, although--in my
view--inappropriate, is based on personal conviction. I don't agree
with his position on finish lines vs. cylinders but that't not the
point. The issue is how we deal with situations before all the facts,
or should I say sufficient facts, are available.

We saw the same thing a few years ago when the SSA's Larry Sanderson
was pilloried in RAS for alleged misdeeds. Certain pilots decided
"where there's smoke, there's fire" and made it their personal agenda
to run Larry out of office with accusations and allegations stated as
fact. They justified what we would otherwise refer to as "vigilante
justice" (i.e., the practice in our Wild West days of citizen
groups--mobs--acting as judge, jury, and executioner) by saying they
"just knew" he was a crook. I didn't try to defend Larry; I merely
tried to persuade people that it was unfair--"un-American"--to
pre-judge someone. Based on private emails I received, I was successful
in some cases but a disheartening number of pilots I otherwise respect
behaved dangerously and dishonorably. Some appeared incapable of
understanding the distinction between defending someone blindly and
defending the concept of due process.

Soaring pilots are generally fine people. But as we see occasionally,
we are probably no different than any other segment of the population.
We can be just as prejudiced, biased, headstrong, narrowminded, and
prone to rush to judgment as any other group of people who share a
common interest.

Chip Bearden

This post reminds me that we have gone a year or two without Larry
Sanderson's name appearing in RAS. Without trying to relive that
matter, it should be noted that Sanderson was not being tried in a court
of law, but instead was an employee who never addressed (as far as I
know) certain serious allegations. In an employment situation it is not
"unfair--"un-American"--to pre-judge someone" -- instead, the employee
has the burden of proving the allegations false. If he can't do that,
he normally would be terminated. "Vigilante justice" has nothing to do
with it.


wrote:
When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all
we need to know about JJ.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).

Bill,

I agree with you and Jez Hood about the way this incident has been
discussed. My only quarrel would be with "this tells us all we need to
know about JJ." It's more complicated.

I know JJ from the competition circuit here in the U.S. and from his
RAS postings and other communications. He justifiably enjoys the
respect of many. I suspect that his reaction, although--in my
view--inappropriate, is based on personal conviction. I don't agree
with his position on finish lines vs. cylinders but that't not the
point. The issue is how we deal with situations before all the facts,
or should I say sufficient facts, are available.

We saw the same thing a few years ago when the SSA's Larry Sanderson
was pilloried in RAS for alleged misdeeds. Certain pilots decided
"where there's smoke, there's fire" and made it their personal agenda
to run Larry out of office with accusations and allegations stated as
fact. They justified what we would otherwise refer to as "vigilante
justice" (i.e., the practice in our Wild West days of citizen
groups--mobs--acting as judge, jury, and executioner) by saying they
"just knew" he was a crook. I didn't try to defend Larry; I merely
tried to persuade people that it was unfair--"un-American"--to
pre-judge someone. Based on private emails I received, I was successful
in some cases but a disheartening number of pilots I otherwise respect
behaved dangerously and dishonorably. Some appeared incapable of
understanding the distinction between defending someone blindly and
defending the concept of due process.

Soaring pilots are generally fine people. But as we see occasionally,
we are probably no different than any other segment of the population.
We can be just as prejudiced, biased, headstrong, narrowminded, and
prone to rush to judgment as any other group of people who share a
common interest.

Chip Bearden

Greg,

Your parenthetical "as far as I know" is sufficient to illustrate my
point. None of us did know, including at least one SSA director who
popped off without thinking clearly (and who later, to his credit,
reconsidered his action). I will offer that the SSA Executive Committee
handled the situation poorly at the time and exacerbated the loss of
confidence in due process. But that's hardly the case with the Neil
Lawson accident investigation.

However, in a classic example of how far apart some of us really are,
you provide additional fuel for the fire by stating that if an employee
cannot prove an allegation false, he/she would (should?) be terminated.
Thankfully neither most employers, most employees, nor the U.S. legal
system share your view. Denouncing someone to finish their career may
have been common in the Soviet era but the lines at U.S. employment
offices would be much, much longer if that were the situation here
today.

Chip Bearden

I'd just like to add that I'm sure a lot more of us
are thinking what Jeremy is saying. As he is the current
Junior World Champion, I for one think he's the right
one to say it.

At 09:00 12 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
personal agenda.

I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
where they are most definately needed. By the way,
for the record, here is my private email to you, which
I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
I gave you:

'John,

How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
know what actually happened, as you were not there-
so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
saying.


Jez Hood'


Now I'm just disappointed with you.



At 16:54 11 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
Jeremy,
I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
you used in your private E-mail to me.

I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
tell me just when is the best time to take action to
prevent the next needless tragidy?

JJ Sinclair

At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
shut up.



At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:

Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
He also said
the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
homicide. That's
right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
bystander. This
tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
was performing the
prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
gate because
that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.

The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
the guy responsible
and the competition was suspended.

How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
before this
outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
is abolished and
replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?

You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
operating his
aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
and that he wasn't
within 500 feet of a person, do you?

JJ Sinclair

wrote:
Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.

But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
finish at 50 ft
(per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
of people, man-made
objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
this accident?

By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
groundloop that
hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
too.

And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
been a pre-arranged
photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
photographer and the
pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
that has
happened.

Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
a deep breath and
go fix a glider or something.

Kirk
66

Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,
Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.
I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.

Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
the controversy.

Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.

JJ Sinclair

JJ,

Keep asking the hard questions (even though I think you're wrong about
the whole finish gate/cylinder debate).

But for the moment, I respectfully suggest that you limit yourself to
questions. Seizing upon this tragic incident without knowing what
really happened serves neither you nor your cause.

Chip Bearden

JJ,

I am not expressing any opinion about sailplane race finish methods, or
about finish gate accidents; nor is Jeremy.

What he and I both object to is for you to use the accident at Husbands
Bosworth on 9th August to support your argument before anyone knows the full
story.

WAIT FOR THE REPORT.

Your methods of debate, using rumour and partial second hand reports,
discredit your opinions.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"John Sinclair"
wrote in message ...

Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,

Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.
I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.

Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
the controversy.

Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.

JJ Sinclair