Actual Time in Sacramento

No. When I take off from O61 (in the clear) I ask for "multiple ILS's
into MHR". I don't usually state "IFR" when its foggy but I probably
should. The controller will then say "Cleared to the Mather Airport via
radar vectors blah blah blah". You **MUST** hear the words "Cleared to
Mather Airport" or you are NOT IFR.

-Robert

when would you actually be considered in "actual" conditions,

When your flight conditions do not meet the ceiling, visibility and cloud clearance requirements for visual flight rules.

I don't consider it "actual" unless the conditions force me to rely on
the instruments to maintain aircraft control. The laws of physics trump
the laws of man.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I don't consider it "actual" unless the conditions force me to rely on the instruments to maintain aircraft control. The laws of physics trump the laws of man.

oops... spoke without context. "Actual" for logging is as above -
"actual" for requiring a clearance is as originally stated ("less than VFR")

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
oups.com...
So... having no actual time, under my belt, how would you typically go
out and practice your approaches? Would you file an IFR flight plan to
SAC or MHR and request multiple approaches in the air, or would you
popup out of O61 and contact NORCAL requesting "practice?" approaches
into MHR/SAC?

Stupid question, but I've never been completely clear on this... In
the case where you are flying from clear to "over" a fog layer, with
intentions of shooting "practice" approaches at the airports under IMC,
when would you actually be considered in "actual" conditions, and when
would you actually be considered cleared under IFR? I'm thrown off by
the word "practice", and probably because that's all I've ever done?
I've been on a filed IFR flight plan, but have never requested a pop-up
clearance or flown into actual IMC. If you request "practice"
approaches in the described conditions, you will actually be in IMC at
some point, so does your "practice" clearance now grant you the
privileges to fly into IMC?

I'm curious about this, not only for legal reasons, but I'm also
curious as to how you would log your time... At what point can you
start logging "actual"?

Thanks and best regards,
Todd


If you're going to want to fly through any actual IMC you need the IFR clearance. The way I would usually
request this is "Approach, N123, on the ramp at KXYZ, request IFR clearance for multiple approaches into KXYZ".
Note there is no "practise" in there-- but even if you said " request IFR clearance for practice approaches",
it's still clear that you want the IFR clearance. He'll ask which approach you want to start with, etc, and
then your clearance will begin "N123 is cleared to KXYZ via radar vectors, climb and maintain 3000, ...".

If I intend to stay VFR and wish "practice" handling by ATC it would be more like this: "Approach, N123, 3 S of
KXYZ, request practice approaches into KXYZ". In such a case you would not hear "cleared to" ( though you
prbably would hear "cleared approach"), but you would probably hear "maintain VFR" sprinkled in with the ATC
instructions...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

If you're going to want to fly through any actual IMC you need the IFR clearance. The way I would usually
request this is "Approach, N123, on the ramp at KXYZ, request IFR clearance for multiple approaches into KXYZ".
Note there is no "practise" in there-- but even if you said " request IFR clearance for practice approaches",
it's still clear that you want the IFR clearance. He'll ask which approach you want to start with, etc, and
then your clearance will begin "N123 is cleared to KXYZ via radar vectors, climb and maintain 3000, ...".

That helps! At what point can you start logging actual (based on my
scenario)?

If I intend to stay VFR and wish "practice" handling by ATC it would be more like this: "Approach, N123, 3 S of
KXYZ, request practice approaches into KXYZ". In such a case you would not hear "cleared to" ( though you
prbably would hear "cleared approach"), but you would probably hear "maintain VFR" sprinkled in with the ATC
instructions...

That's what I am used to... I think if I want to get "actual" practice
time in, I would go with your first approach. I'm still unclear though
on the logging.

Thanks!
Todd

On 12/16/2005 08:22, three-eight-hotel wrote:

If you're going to want to fly through any actual IMC you need the IFR clearance. The way I would usually
request this is "Approach, N123, on the ramp at KXYZ, request IFR clearance for multiple approaches into KXYZ".
Note there is no "practise" in there-- but even if you said " request IFR clearance for practice approaches",
it's still clear that you want the IFR clearance. He'll ask which approach you want to start with, etc, and
then your clearance will begin "N123 is cleared to KXYZ via radar vectors, climb and maintain 3000, ...".

That helps! At what point can you start logging actual (based on my
scenario)?

Personally, I would log actual anytime I'm flying in conditions that require
me to control the aircraft by instruments only. The fact that it may be less
than VFR conditions doesn't really count - in my opinion.


If I intend to stay VFR and wish "practice" handling by ATC it would be more like this: "Approach, N123, 3 S of
KXYZ, request practice approaches into KXYZ". In such a case you would not hear "cleared to" ( though you
prbably would hear "cleared approach"), but you would probably hear "maintain VFR" sprinkled in with the ATC
instructions...

That's what I am used to... I think if I want to get "actual" practice
time in, I would go with your first approach. I'm still unclear though
on the logging.

Well, not to throw a monkey wrench in there, but another question is when
do you consider your approach as one that counts toward your currency?
For example, if you're in VMC, and practice an approach (no hood, etc.)
which includes only a small layer of clouds to get through, do you count
that?

After all, if the ceiling is at 2000', and you're vectored to the FAC
at 1500', you're flying the entire IAP in VMC conditions, right? Would
you consider this an approach toward your 6-month currency?



Thanks!
Todd



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

The FAA's FAQ says you can log actual anytime you can only fly the
aircraft by reference to the instruments. At one point someone smartly
ask, "What about a dark moonless night over the water when its CAVU".
The FAA came back with "That's good enough, you can log actual
instrument then too".

-Robert

On 12/16/2005 06:51, three-eight-hotel wrote:

So... having no actual time, under my belt, how would you typically go
out and practice your approaches? Would you file an IFR flight plan to
SAC or MHR and request multiple approaches in the air, or would you
popup out of O61 and contact NORCAL requesting "practice?" approaches
into MHR/SAC?

You can do it either way. The bottom line is that you cannot fly into
IMC (in controlled airspace) without an IFR flight plan and a ATC
clearance. Alternatively, you can depart your airport VFR, then
get the pop-up IFR before you hit IMC at the destination (where you
wish to fly the approach).

As Dave said, it's not "practice" when you're flying in actual IMC, so
don't think of it that way. If you want a pop-up, just call up NorCal
like this:

"NorCal, Cessna XXXX is a C-172/G, XX miles SW of SAC VOR,
heading XXX, and I would like to get an IFR clearance to fly
the ILS runway 2 at Executive, pilot nav, missed as published"

(note that local customs have you call "NorCal, Cessna XXX, Request"
first).


Stupid question, but I've never been completely clear on this... In
the case where you are flying from clear to "over" a fog layer, with
intentions of shooting "practice" approaches at the airports under IMC,
when would you actually be considered in "actual" conditions, and when
would you actually be considered cleared under IFR? I'm thrown off by
the word "practice", and probably because that's all I've ever done?

As Dave said, your confusion is over using the word "practice" when
in actual IMC. They don't go together well. When flying in actual IMC,
you're practicing about as much as the SWA airline pilot is ;-)

One thing I noticed around here, is that when you're practicing
approaches, NorCal will say "Approved for the approach" rather than
"Cleared for the approach". They don't do this every time, but I was
told this was their way of making it clear that they know you're not
on an IFR flight plan.


I've been on a filed IFR flight plan, but have never requested a pop-up
clearance or flown into actual IMC. If you request "practice"
approaches in the described conditions, you will actually be in IMC at
some point, so does your "practice" clearance now grant you the
privileges to fly into IMC?

No. In fact, NorCal will generally remind you to maintain VFR at all
times. However, if the conditions at the field are clearly IMC, they
may "assume" what you want is an IFR clearance. I wouldn't think this
would just work without both sides being clear on what is happening,
so I would expect there to be some confusion.



I'm curious about this, not only for legal reasons, but I'm also
curious as to how you would log your time... At what point can you
start logging "actual"?

Well, go nuts if you want. Generally, I just look back on the flight
and guestimate. If it was a 1.2 hour flight, and I was only in the
clouds during the final approach and initial missed of each approach,
then I might figure I was in IMC for .4 hours - then split my time
accordingly in my log.



Thanks and best regards,
Todd


By the way, I plan to make my first actual instrument approaches (in
IMC) with an instructor. Do you plan to do yours single pilot? Please
don't take this as criticism - I tend to be overly cautious, and I
expect there will be folks who will argue that if you have your rating,
you're qualified to exercise it.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

One thing I noticed around here, is that when you're practicing
approaches, NorCal will say "Approved for the approach" rather than
"Cleared for the approach". They don't do this every time, but I was
told this was their way of making it clear that they know you're not
on an IFR flight plan.

I've always received a "cleared for the approach"

No. In fact, NorCal will generally remind you to maintain VFR at all
times. However, if the conditions at the field are clearly IMC, they
may "assume" what you want is an IFR clearance. I wouldn't think this
would just work without both sides being clear on what is happening,
so I would expect there to be some confusion

This is where I need to be clear... I like John's comment on simply
requesting an IFR clearance to the airport for multiple approaches.

Well, go nuts if you want. Generally, I just look back on the flight
and guestimate. If it was a 1.2 hour flight, and I was only in the
clouds during the final approach and initial missed of each approach,
then I might figure I was in IMC for .4 hours - then split my time
accordingly in my log.

Makes sense...

By the way, I plan to make my first actual instrument approaches (in
IMC) with an instructor. Do you plan to do yours single pilot? Please
don't take this as criticism - I tend to be overly cautious, and I
expect there will be folks who will argue that if you have your rating,
you're qualified to exercise it

I absolutely intend to take an instrucotr along my first time... We've
talked about this before. I tend to lean toward the cautious side as
well.

I'm utilizing the incredible resources in this group to extend my
knowledge base! I'm amazed at how little I feel like I know, yet I was
able to achieve the rating. I tend to underestimate myself, but am
always driven to keep learning! I'm very comfortable with my aviation
skills at the point where I am, but I have no desire to go jump into an
overly-risky situation without some real world experience, with an
instructor (there was an entire thread on risk at one point!). I don't
see shooting approaches at MHR overly-risky, with clear to the East as
an out, but I would feel much better if my first attempt was with
someone that could watch my back and critique my experience when it was
all over.

Best Regards,
Todd

On 12/16/2005 08:43, three-eight-hotel wrote:

One thing I noticed around here, is that when you're practicing
approaches, NorCal will say "Approved for the approach" rather than
"Cleared for the approach". They don't do this every time, but I was
told this was their way of making it clear that they know you're not
on an IFR flight plan.

I've always received a "cleared for the approach"

In my training, I only heard "Approved for the approach" a few times.
The first time, I was confused by it, and thought it meant I couldn't
fly the approach (because I didn't hear the magic words). My CFII said
that is how they say in during VMC practice of IAPs, and that it was
strange we didn't hear it more often.

Hmmmm, I guess it's just another one of those local policies?


No. In fact, NorCal will generally remind you to maintain VFR at all
times. However, if the conditions at the field are clearly IMC, they
may "assume" what you want is an IFR clearance. I wouldn't think this
would just work without both sides being clear on what is happening,
so I would expect there to be some confusion

This is where I need to be clear... I like John's comment on simply
requesting an IFR clearance to the airport for multiple approaches.

Yes, but you can do that from the air using a pop-up as well. If you
would like to depart your home airport VFR, don't feel forced into
departing on an IFR flight plan just because you want to go IFR at
some point in the flight.

There were times when we wanted to practice air work, but there was
low-level stratus around the area. We would request an IFR clearance
to VFR on top, and once there, cancel IFR. Then, when we were ready to
come back to the airport, we would just request an IFR clearance for
the desired approach, and bang, we're back in the system.


Well, go nuts if you want. Generally, I just look back on the flight
and guestimate. If it was a 1.2 hour flight, and I was only in the
clouds during the final approach and initial missed of each approach,
then I might figure I was in IMC for .4 hours - then split my time
accordingly in my log.

Makes sense...

By the way, I plan to make my first actual instrument approaches (in
IMC) with an instructor. Do you plan to do yours single pilot? Please
don't take this as criticism - I tend to be overly cautious, and I
expect there will be folks who will argue that if you have your rating,
you're qualified to exercise it

I absolutely intend to take an instrucotr along my first time... We've
talked about this before. I tend to lean toward the cautious side as
well.

I'm utilizing the incredible resources in this group to extend my
knowledge base!

I especially enjoy discussions like these. With a green rating and little
practical experience, I've got a lot to learn as well.

I'm amazed at how little I feel like I know, yet I was
able to achieve the rating.

Well, if you saw my write-up on my instrument check ride, you'll know
that I almost felt cheated-out of any real testing. The examiner (who
is also the chief flight instructor and owner of the FBO) did a really
terrible job of evaluating my abilities. But, I got my rating, and I
figured that I can continue to learn.

I tend to underestimate myself, but am
always driven to keep learning! I'm very comfortable with my aviation
skills at the point where I am, but I have no desire to go jump into an
overly-risky situation without some real world experience, with an
instructor (there was an entire thread on risk at one point!).

Yeah, that was what I was hinting at. On the other side of the coin,
when you flew your first solo, you did that without an instructor. At
the time, you may have thought less about your skills, but when you
took-off, that all dropped away, and you began to realize that you
were indeed adequately prepared for the task.

Still, I plan to take a CFII with me the first time ;-)

I don't
see shooting approaches at MHR overly-risky, with clear to the East as
an out, but I would feel much better if my first attempt was with
someone that could watch my back and critique my experience when it was
all over.

Amen to that! The good thing about the approach at MHR (at least the
approaches to 22) is they are so bloody long. You have plenty of time
to keep things together.

By the way, today would be perfect for it. limited vis and 500' ceilings!


Best Regards,
Todd



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA