Some bad controllers

Dave Butler wrote:
Jay Somerset wrote:

Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is
responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get
hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?


The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion
of the flight plan.

And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
procedure he would have had better luck.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
procedure he would have had better luck.


If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC. If you call
ATC directly you skip the middle man.

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:


If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC.
If you call ATC directly you skip the middle man.

If only all controllers provided this exemplary service. One time last
summer, I overheard two different GA aircraft within a few minutes of each
other attempt to pick up their IFR clearances while in the air inside
Philadelphia Approach's airspace.

The controller, after hearing the second request, asked what is going on
here, then proceeded to lecture all listening that IFR aircraft should be
contacting flight service for clearances when in the air.

The controller then answered the second aircraft and told him to do just
that, then returned to servicing all other aircraft under his control.


--
Peter












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The answer to your question as well as to the general question of who is
responsible for closing any flight plan is: The pilot-in-command

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they usually
close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy rather than
something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In the end it is the
responsibility of the PIC

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC


When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.

??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC


When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply
because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?


None. No action necessary.

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way?


It's not "automated", it's "automatic".



What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?


Pilot: Lands.

ATC: Observes pilot land.

That's it. Flight plan is now closed.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC



When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.



Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival? If not,
how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport on an IFR
flight plan? How does the computer know the difference?


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival?


Only if you consider watching the aircraft land to be some action.



If not, how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport
on an IFR flight plan?


At a non-towered airport ATC is not able to observe the pilot land, so the
pilot must tell ATC he's landed or cancel IFR.



How does the computer know the difference?


The computer doesn't need to know, there's no computer processing beyond the
destination airport.

If a pilot cancels IFR while enroute the controller receiving the
cancellation will enter a "remove strips" message, every ATC position
downline that has received a strip will receive that message. If you're the
last controller, tower controller at a controlled field or the controller
providing approach control services for an untowered field, there's nobody
to pass that message to.