barrel roll in 172

Ron;
I think what might be happening here is that some folks are defining the
roll from the set point rather than from level flight. It's true that any
raising of the nose from level flight will require more than 1 g, but once
at the set point and initiating the roll (aileron roll) you can unload the
airplane all the way down to 0 g if you like right up to the backside
recovery to level flight, where the g of course has to be returned.
Dudley Henriques

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Big John wrote:
Andrey

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.

It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.
It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

Ron;
I think what might be happening here is that some folks are defining the
roll from the set point rather than from level flight. It's true that any
raising of the nose from level flight will require more than 1 g, but once
at the set point and initiating the roll (aileron roll) you can unload the
airplane all the way down to 0 g if you like right up to the backside
recovery to level flight, where the g of course has to be returned.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley, they are not paying attention. They are thinking every maneuver
has to start and be flown from the straight and level. They don't think
in terms of up/down-lines at any angle.
ie.... Reverse half-Cuban with a barrel roll on the down 45.

Dudley

Can it be said?

In a Barrel Roll the ball starts centered and stays centered
throughout the roll until aircraft returns to straight and level
flight and starts some other maneuver.

In a Slow Roll (sometimes called Point Roll) the ball starts centered
and is then never centered except momentarily when bird has rolled 180
degrees and is inverted, until completion of roll and return to
straight and level flight?

Rolls are easy to explain face to face in briefing using hands or
models and demo in air, but over Internet the nuances of English make
it difficult.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:43:10 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Ron;
I think what might be happening here is that some folks are defining the
roll from the set point rather than from level flight. It's true that any
raising of the nose from level flight will require more than 1 g, but once
at the set point and initiating the roll (aileron roll) you can unload the
airplane all the way down to 0 g if you like right up to the backside
recovery to level flight, where the g of course has to be returned.
Dudley Henriques

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
om...
Big John wrote:
Andrey

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.

It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Dudley

Can it be said?

In a Barrel Roll the ball starts centered and stays centered
throughout the roll until aircraft returns to straight and level
flight and starts some other maneuver.

If you are good, you can fly a barrel roll center ball. This requires a near
perfect blend of all controls and is the right way to do the classic BR.

In a Slow Roll (sometimes called Point Roll) the ball starts centered
and is then never centered except momentarily when bird has rolled 180
degrees and is inverted, until completion of roll and return to
straight and level flight?

Well...almost :-) You might lose the center ball as you pull to the roll set
point but in theory it should remain more of less centered up till roll
initiation. Immediately after you initiate a slow roll, you will lose a
center ball as all control input through a slow roll is done in a constantly
changing cross control dynamic. In theory, you should have a doghouse ball
passing through the exact inverted point, but what actually is happening at
this point is that you will be changing rudder to regain top rudder on the
back side, so the airplane will be in a state of transition even through
exact inverted.
Personally, I never used a ball at all in aerobatics and I don't recommend
using a ball to other aerobatic instructors. One of the benefits involved in
learning to fly acro is that you learn to judge maneuver quality with your
eyeballs on the nose attitude outside the airplane . All positioning is
eyeball related and any unwanted yaw should be immediately apparent by
watching the nose.
I discourage ball use even in primary students, and get their heads outside
where it belongs as soon as possible.
All pilots should learn as soon as possible to judge turn quality from nose
attitude behavior.
I know many...many aerobatic pilots who take the ball out of their airplanes
simply to save the weight and space the instrument takes up on the panel.


Rolls are easy to explain face to face in briefing using hands or
models and demo in air, but over Internet the nuances of English make
it difficult.

This can be quite true.

Dudley Henriques


Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:43:10 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Ron;
I think what might be happening here is that some folks are defining the
roll from the set point rather than from level flight. It's true that any
raising of the nose from level flight will require more than 1 g, but once
at the set point and initiating the roll (aileron roll) you can unload the
airplane all the way down to 0 g if you like right up to the backside
recovery to level flight, where the g of course has to be returned.
Dudley Henriques

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. com...
Big John wrote:
Andrey

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.

It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

Ron

Wrong choice of words.

Straight and level your G meter reads one G,(force of gravity) if
calabrated correctly. You roll into a turn and pull one G (2 G's on
meter) to make a one G turn. Please correct my posts to show this.

I should have said two G's on meter and things would work out. Sorry
about that (

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:30:11 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote:

Big John wrote:
Andrey

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.

It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
If kept within the normal category load limits, is 172 certified to do
barrel rolls?

Andrey

No, but you can do a slip-short split-S if you so desire. I've only
done one in a low wing, but keeping positive 1g throughout is
necessary. They don't have the roll rate of an edge 540 so I don't know
why you would even want to do anything like a barrel roll in a training
aircraft. I like your live on the edge spirit though!!

(5) Model 172L (1972 model)

"This airplane must be operated in compliance with the
operating limitations

as stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals:

MAXIMUMS

Normal Category Utility Category

Maneuvering speed (CAS) 122 mph (106 knots) 122 mph (106
knots)

Gross weight 2300 lbs. 2000 lbs.

Flight load factor

Flaps up +3.8 -1.52 +4.4 -1.76

Flaps down +3.5 +3.5

Normal category - No acrobatic maneuvers including spins
approved

Utility category - Baggage compartment and rear seat must
not be occupied.

No acrobatic maneuvers approved except those listed below.

Maneuver Max. Entry speed

Chandelles 122 mph (106 knots)

Lazy eights 122 mph (106 knots)

Steep turns 122 mph (106 knots)

Spins Slow deceleration

Stalls (except whip stalls) Slow deceleration"

Spin recovery: opposite rudder - forward elevator -
neutralize controls.

Intentional spins with flaps extended are prohibited. Known
icing conditions to

be avoided. This airplane is certified for the following
flight operations as of date

of original airworthiness certificate:

(DAY NIGHT VFR IFR)" (as applicable)



Download the entire TCDS here
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...4?OpenDocument





"JerryGirrafe" wrote in
message
ups.com...
|
| Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
| If kept within the normal category load limits, is 172
certified to do
| barrel rolls?
|
| Andrey
|
| No, but you can do a slip-short split-S if you so desire.
I've only
| done one in a low wing, but keeping positive 1g throughout
is
| necessary. They don't have the roll rate of an edge 540 so
I don't know
| why you would even want to do anything like a barrel roll
in a training
| aircraft. I like your live on the edge spirit though!!
|

Jim Macklin wrote

(5) Model 172L (1972 model)
"This airplane must be operated in compliance with the
operating limitations as stated in the form of placards,
markings, and manuals:

Yeah Jim, and we all MUST comply with all highway speed limits,
even when they were 55 mph. Hell...my speedometer even had a
big red mark at 55 mph.

A lot of those placards, markings, and manual limits are just
because the manufacturer did not want to spend the time and
money in order to seek certification for a particular item.

Such is the case of the "no slips with flaps" contained in the
manual for a lot of the C-172s.

Bob Moore

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 11:57:10 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote in ::

A lot of those placards, markings, and manual limits are just
because the manufacturer did not want to spend the time and
money in order to seek certification for a particular item.

Such is the case of the "no slips with flaps" contained in the
manual for a lot of the C-172s.

From: (Jackie Murray)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Cessna 172 slips with flaps
Date: 5 Jul 1994 15:06:35 -0400
Message-ID:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.114.130.70


I know this has been beaten to death, but I just received an article
from AOPA about the C172 and there is a reference to this problem.

Article: "Anatomy of a Success" (The makings of a winner) by Thomas A.
Horne, AOPA Pilot in May, 1992. In describing the phenomenal success
and popularity of this plane when introduced in 1955, the author says
this:

"There was -- and still is -- one handling quirk: In a forward slip
with flaps extended, a 172 could pitch nose down, violently enough to
push a pilot against his seat belt. This is caused by an upturned
aileron's reducing the normally strong downwash of air over the
horizontal tail. Though puzzling in its infrequency, Cessna saw the
potential for trouble. Consequently, a placard is installed near the
flap control: Avoid slips with flaps extended."

Message-ID:

An added note in this article...I am still reading it....in 1972 the
'dorsal fin was extended all the way forward to the rear window. This
helped virtually eliminate the nose-down pitch problem in sideslips
and made the airplane much more spin resistant....Cessna received
complaints from some flight instructors because of this
characteristic. Demonstrations of fully developed (three-turn) spins
were difficult to perform; result was usually a spiral"

Cessna received
complaints from some flight instructors because of this
characteristic. Demonstrations of fully developed (three-turn) spins
were difficult to perform; result was usually a spiral"

Interesting. Cessna creates a safer airplane, and people complain.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
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