Crashing on takeoff... how odd

wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
You are assuming that all such crashes are due to partial power loss. Isn't so. One
airplane crash on takeoff a few years ago was due to a problem with the elevator trim, if I
recall correctly. Also, a weight and balance issue can cause a crash right after takeoff as
can myriad other problems not related to power.


Well, why then do you guys dread an engine failure more than anything
else?

I wasn't aware that we did. I fear the tail or a wing falling off MUCH
more than an engine failure. If the engines quit, at least the plane
will still fly, most of the time.

Emily wrote:
wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

You are assuming that all such crashes are due to partial power loss.
Isn't so. One
airplane crash on takeoff a few years ago was due to a problem with
the elevator trim, if I
recall correctly. Also, a weight and balance issue can cause a crash
right after takeoff as
can myriad other problems not related to power.



Well, why then do you guys dread an engine failure more than anything
else?


I wasn't aware that we did. I fear the tail or a wing falling off MUCH
more than an engine failure. If the engines quit, at least the plane
will still fly, most of the time.

That and aft CG. With an engine failure, I still have a lot to do and
much is still in my control. With an out of limit aft CG, there is
little that can be done and you have too much time to contemplate your fate.

Matt

wrote in message

Well, why then do you guys dread an engine failure more than anything
else?

Most transport pilots don't, I think. There are a number of things I would
rate higher on the crucial scale than an engine failure. .

Perhaps more than the short runway, rising terrain off the
end of runway 26 looks to be in the take-off path. It will
be weeks before the calculations are verified, the ATC and
CVR tapes checked and the FDR completely investigated.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

wrote in message
oups.com...
| Matt Whiting wrote:
|
| You are assuming that all such crashes are due to
partial power loss. Isn't so. One
| airplane crash on takeoff a few years ago was due to a
problem with the elevator trim, if I
| recall correctly. Also, a weight and balance issue can
cause a crash right after takeoff as
| can myriad other problems not related to power.
|
|
| Well, why then do you guys dread an engine failure more
than anything
| else? The reason is because other factors are pretty
much within
| your control - pitch trim, aircraft loading, choice of
runway,
| condition of the tires and whatever else. Engines too I'm
sure aren't
| altogether iffy but there's an element of risk of a
failure because of
| their enormous complexity - and nobody can deny that there
isn't
| anything simple about a turbine!
|
| Someone on this thread mentioned 'loss of control
surfaces' as one of
| the many possible reasons - what does that mean? A
hydraulic failure
| that altogether prevents aileron, elevator and rudder
control?
|
| Ramapriya
|

That may not be the case, downloaded the IAP charts and
looked at a topo map of the airport area, it appears that
the terrain slopes downward off the end of rwy 26, but that
does not include trees and buildings.
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...ad27&layer=DRG

Reports are that they hit the airport fence, that would have
seriously impacted climb.

BTW, for those who suggested that the crew may have set the
HI to the wrong heading, transport jets have dual slaved
compass systems.



"Jim Macklin" wrote
in message news:O8vIg.6171$SZ3.5038@dukeread04...
| Perhaps more than the short runway, rising terrain off the
| end of runway 26 looks to be in the take-off path. It
will
| be weeks before the calculations are verified, the ATC and
| CVR tapes checked and the FDR completely investigated.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| wrote in message
|
oups.com...
|| Matt Whiting wrote:
||
|| You are assuming that all such crashes are due to
| partial power loss. Isn't so. One
|| airplane crash on takeoff a few years ago was due to a
| problem with the elevator trim, if I
|| recall correctly. Also, a weight and balance issue can
| cause a crash right after takeoff as
|| can myriad other problems not related to power.
||
||
|| Well, why then do you guys dread an engine failure more
| than anything
|| else? The reason is because other factors are pretty
| much within
|| your control - pitch trim, aircraft loading, choice of
| runway,
|| condition of the tires and whatever else. Engines too I'm
| sure aren't
|| altogether iffy but there's an element of risk of a
| failure because of
|| their enormous complexity - and nobody can deny that
there
| isn't
|| anything simple about a turbine!
||
|| Someone on this thread mentioned 'loss of control
| surfaces' as one of
|| the many possible reasons - what does that mean? A
| hydraulic failure
|| that altogether prevents aileron, elevator and rudder
| control?
||
|| Ramapriya
||
|
|

Airplanes are heavier on takeoff than at any other time, and the margin
between their climb speeds and the stall is at its smallest. Ask anyone who
has done a V1 cut in training or on a checkride (jets only). I'm willing to
venture that the pilots of the accident plane did all of the appropriate
calculations for the longer runway. Seems to me that if a plane is cleared
for takeoff on a long runway but lines up on a shorter runway, there is a
lot of blame to be shared between the cockpit and the tower.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
ups.com...
I remember a recent discussion with a pilot mate where I was mentioning
how illogical a crash-shortly-after-takeoff is, given that beyond V1
takeoff can safely be continued even with just one good engine. I'd
even told him that if I saw an aircraft airborne following takeoff, I'd
presume it safe.

Days after that tete-a-tete, a Fokker went down in Pakistan shortly
after taking off. And today the Bombardier at Kentucky.

Doesn't add up, does it? After all, if the engines are good and there's
no bomb going off, it should be pretty hard to crash an aircraft!

Ramapriya

Bob Gardner wrote:

Airplanes are heavier on takeoff than at any other time, and the margin
between their climb speeds and the stall is at its smallest. Ask anyone who
has done a V1 cut in training or on a checkride (jets only). I'm willing to
venture that the pilots of the accident plane did all of the appropriate
calculations for the longer runway. Seems to me that if a plane is cleared
for takeoff on a long runway but lines up on a shorter runway, there is a
lot of blame to be shared between the cockpit and the tower.

If the tower cleared the airplane to the correct runway and the pilots
taxied to a different one, how does the tower share in this blame?

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

If the tower cleared the airplane to the correct runway and the pilots
taxied to a different one, how does the tower share in this blame?


ATC will no doubt be assigned a share of the blame. But if the pilot
reports ready to go at the assigned runway when he's actually at a different
one, and there is a Comair at the assigned runway, it's easy for the local
controller to miss the error.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

If the tower cleared the airplane to the correct runway and the pilots
taxied to a different one, how does the tower share in this blame?



ATC will no doubt be assigned a share of the blame. But if the pilot
reports ready to go at the assigned runway when he's actually at a different
one, and there is a Comair at the assigned runway, it's easy for the local
controller to miss the error.

I certainly always appreciate when ATC catches a mistake that I make or
am about to make, but as PIC the bottom line is that it is still my
responsibility for any errors, not ATC's.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:



I certainly always appreciate when ATC catches a mistake that I make or
am about to make, but as PIC the bottom line is that it is still my
responsibility for any errors, not ATC's.

Jets take a long time to take off so if he used the wrong runway the
question will certainly arise as to what the tower controller was
looking at. My guess is the coffee pot. The controller would have had
about 1 minute after issuing the clearance to notice that he was using
the wrong runway. And looking at the airport diagram this would be an
area well known to controllers for aircraft using the wrong runway. We
have one here at BIL. Ask for a certain intersection and don't turn all
the way onto the runway and you are using the last 700 feet of another
runway. We've had one crash, one near crash and a bunch of aborts from
pilots who weren't paying attention.