Tow cars and trailers

Ramy wrote:
While we're on the subject, any comments on the Lexus RX hybrid as a
tow vehicle?

Don't be taken in by the hype. If you consider whole of life energy
costs then hybrids are not very green at all. See

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy

and download the "Dust to Dust" report for details.

The problem is that, while hybrids may give better fuel economy, that's
easily outweighed by the extra energy costs in building and recycling
them. For example, the Ford Focus I drive has a lifetime energy cost of
under 25% that of a Prius despite a 1:1.6 ratio of gas burnt per mile.

On topic: my Focus, a 2 litre automatic estate, has shown itself to be a
good tow car for a Std Libelle in a closed trailer though mileage does
suffer while towing.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On May 18, 11:36 pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Ramy wrote:
While we're on the subject, any comments on the Lexus RX hybrid as a
tow vehicle?

Don't be taken in by the hype. If you consider whole of life energy
costs then hybrids are not very green at all. See

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy

and download the "Dust to Dust" report for details.

Disappointed to see that spectacular piece of FUD linked to here.

The "study" is riddled with strange unexplained arbitary assumptions
in order to arrive at their conclusions such as the idea that a Prius
lasts only 100,000 miles and that a Hummer lasts 379,000(!). Reverse
those numbers to get a true picture of what taxi firms are seeing.

Another cracker: "The typical hybrid small vehicle such as the Prius
is driven far fewer miles each year than a comparably sized budget
car. And for good reason... these are generally secondary vehicles in
a household OR they are driven in restricted or short range
environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods. "
Erm, what? The only hybrid owners I know are long-distance business
drivers - they either bought the hybrid themselves or, increasingly
commonly, have been given them as company cars because they're so
cheap to run (assisted by tax breaks).

A priceless "I've not done my homework" section is claiming that the
factory that produces the nickel for the Prius's battery has reduced
the local area to "a moonscape". Originally the factory did - in the
1960s. Since then the factory and area has been cleaned up and in 1992
was given an award by the UN for environmental rehabilitation.

Over 120 pages of the report is made up of photos of cars, editorial
cartoons and SONG LYRICS.

Funnily enough CNW is entirely funded by the North American car
industry.

If it's not peer reviewed - and this certainly wasn't - it's junk. I
speak has someone who studied product whole-life-cost estimation for
my degree.


Dan

I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.


Dan

Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.


Dan


Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.

Hatchback weight is 1250Kg. Tows happily at the national speed limit, although
it does get a bit hard work in the mountains. Tops of our passes are around
2,300m MSL Nothing too bad for the small car to tow. Then I got into a Kestrel
T59D with one piece wings. It's trailer is unaerodynamic, heavy (900Kg) and
just plain huge.
The stability issue is in a different class. With nearly 2 tons of Wales' best
(XC70 is made in Wales not Sweden) and a really big polar moment on such a long
vehicle, the disturbance from trucks and wind is a lot lower. Fuel consumption
is not that different towing the trailer between the two - unless you get
irresponsible/inattentive with the speed. The control reserve is generally
bigger with the bigger car.
So stability is the primary towing reason for getting the barge - the other
reasons are indefensible. (It's hard making a logical case for something that
comes down to - "I like it".)In town the hatchback is the place to be - on the
open road or dirt roads the Volvo is a far nicer ride.

Cost - @ 2l/100km additional fuel is around 400litres per year. (roughly 100US
gallons)At ~R7/l (4USD/US gallon) that is quite a lot of money. In South Africa
the cost of my vehicular extravagance is equivalent to at least one tow per
month. I winch launch so the extra fuel for the trip to the airfield is close to
the cost of a winch launch.

Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.

I have towed one of those lightweight Nimbus 3 jobbies in a Pfeiffer
trailer with the 2.5L Subaru Outback. It handled better than towing it
with a slightly older (97) Chevy Tahoe 5.7L , ESPECIALLY in side wind
gusts. I imagine this is due to suspension tuning, or lack thereof on
the Chevy's part.
Currently towing a longer and equally light Cobra AS-H26E trailer
with the same car. The biggest towing problem has been "citations of
excessive cross-country progress" awarded by the Highway Patrol.
Both Paul Bikle and Bob Harris' long standing World altitude records
were set within 50km of home, to put the hill and wind situation in
perspective.
Jim

JS wrote:
Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.


I have towed one of those lightweight Nimbus 3 jobbies in a Pfeiffer
trailer with the 2.5L Subaru Outback. It handled better than towing it
with a slightly older (97) Chevy Tahoe 5.7L , ESPECIALLY in side wind
gusts. I imagine this is due to suspension tuning, or lack thereof on
the Chevy's part.
Currently towing a longer and equally light Cobra AS-H26E trailer
with the same car. The biggest towing problem has been "citations of
excessive cross-country progress" awarded by the Highway Patrol.
Both Paul Bikle and Bob Harris' long standing World altitude records
were set within 50km of home, to put the hill and wind situation in
perspective.
Jim

Perfect agreement - the Outback is direct competition for the XC70 - Roughly the
same size and weight. Seriously considered it, but I prefer the relaxed nature
of the Volvo. Then there is the small problem of just about no Subaru dealers in
a large country.
Conversely, I cannot understand why people would want to drive something the
size of a Tahoe, or Suburban or whatever on a daily basis. Most of these are
simply marketing exercises to improve profits. Cheap, relatively unsophisticated
light truck design. Add massive body (to cart sprung bendy chassis) - way up
high so the CG gets even worse, and market it as a lifestyle. Give it slab sides
to look macho - Very good for profits, even if the roll over accident rate
soars...

As I said - the extra wheelbase, and weight make it safer and easier to tow a
substantial trailer. I should have added the corollary - if and only if - the
car has the attributes of a good tow vehicle.
One of those attributes is good aerodynamic stability - which many SUVs lack.
Also the lateral compliance built into real 4x4s suspension allows for way too
much lateral swaying for good towing. I only towed my glider behind one of these
once - I could see the body flexing as we drove. It was unstable at anything
above 100km/h. With the hatchback it was happy at 110km/h and the Volvo cruises
at 120 without a tremor. I don't care to try faster - as the "excessive XC
achievement awards" are undesirable.

2.5L Subaru Outback. It handled better than towing it
with a slightly older (97) Chevy Tahoe 5.7L

While we're comparing tow vehicles, I currently have a Standard class
glider, with a typical fiberglass tube trailer. Tows fine up to as
fast as I want to go behind my '95 Dodge Dakote 4-cyl pickup. But
sometime in the future, that will wear out or I'll get tired of the
standard shift, and it'll be replaced. 2 vehicles interest me: the
Honda Ridgeline pickup, and the Subaru Baja (either at least 3 years
old, I'm done with new vehicles). Does anyone have any experience
with either of these for towing gliders?

tia,
Ed

On May 18, 8:50 am, Bruce wrote:
Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.

Dan

Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.

Hatchback weight is 1250Kg. Tows happily at the national speed limit, although
it does get a bit hard work in the mountains. Tops of our passes are around
2,300m MSL Nothing too bad for the small car to tow. Then I got into a Kestrel
T59D with one piece wings. It's trailer is unaerodynamic, heavy (900Kg) and
just plain huge.
The stability issue is in a different class. With nearly 2 tons of Wales' best
(XC70 is made in Wales not Sweden) and a really big polar moment on such a long
vehicle, the disturbance from trucks and wind is a lot lower. Fuel consumption
is not that different towing the trailer between the two - unless you get
irresponsible/inattentive with the speed. The control reserve is generally
bigger with the bigger car.
So stability is the primary towing reason for getting the barge - the other
reasons are indefensible. (It's hard making a logical case for something that
comes down to - "I like it".)In town the hatchback is the place to be - on the
open road or dirt roads the Volvo is a far nicer ride.

Cost - @ 2l/100km additional fuel is around 400litres per year. (roughly 100US
gallons)At ~R7/l (4USD/US gallon) that is quite a lot of money. In South Africa
the cost of my vehicular extravagance is equivalent to at least one tow per
month. I winch launch so the extra fuel for the trip to the airfield is close to
the cost of a winch launch.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A BMW Z3 is a great tow vehicle for light-weight trailers- it does not
sway and consumes little gas. When I got a heavier trailer, I decied
to give my Z3 a rest. Towing with a sedan was a constant battle, so I
didn't consider buyng a new vehicle with a hitch far beynd the
wheels. I found the idea vehicle - a V6 Rav 4. Great gas milage -24+
and around 20 MPG at 75 MPH with the trailer. Mounain passes are no
problem. It's is uneffected by trucks and strong cross-winds. The
tow package makes set-up easy and is certified for a much haevier tow
weight than we require. It doesn't beat the Z3's gas milage nor the
3's surprise factor, but the Rav is a real winner.

On May 18, 7:05 am, Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

The maximum towing capacity is specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
The Passat TDi may or may not be rated for up to 3,000lbs.

My Neon 2.0L with manual transmission (less than $14,000 new)
routinely gave me 33-38 mpg depending on driving cycle. It could
easily pull my 15m glider with its 2,000lb towing rating. I wonder
how much a Prius is rated for towing?

gasoline-elctric hybrids

The Prius stickers at around $24,000. The full government rebate is
limited to the first 60,000 Prius per model year (about $3,000):

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/...dtaxcredit.htm

If I miss out on the full government rebate then I would pay up to
$10,000 more than the Neon to drive a vehicle which I doubt will tow
my glider. Let's not even consider the extra cost for maintenance and
repairs or battery replacement costs.

For $10,000 I can drive my conventional technology Neon over 87,000
miles, assuming gasoline is $4/gal and 35mpg. And still tow my glider
most places (albeit less than 35mpg while towing).

Btw, I think vehicles like the Prius are great. But they are no
silver bullet (I know you didn't claim they were).

(Going a bit further OT):
If we truly believe what Al Gore is saying, then we would all
immediately stop using anything that creates CO2 and other greenhouse
gases (I guess we should still allow ourselves to breath as our bodies
do create CO2 and water vapor, both GHGs). Park all cars and trucks
permanently. Ground all airplanes and so forth. As far as
inconvenience to daily life, so what? We are talking about saving the
planet, right (at least according to Gore and some others)? Maybe
even if Gore believed what he is saying he would stop living in a huge
house that consumes many times the energy of the average US house. Or
is that four houses he owns?

Regards,

-Doug

On 5/20/07 6:24 AM, in article
, "Doug Hoffman"
wrote:

On May 18, 7:05 am, Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

The maximum towing capacity is specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
The Passat TDi may or may not be rated for up to 3,000lbs.

My Neon 2.0L with manual transmission (less than $14,000 new)
routinely gave me 33-38 mpg depending on driving cycle. It could
easily pull my 15m glider with its 2,000lb towing rating. I wonder
how much a Prius is rated for towing?

gasoline-elctric hybrids

The Prius stickers at around $24,000. The full government rebate is
limited to the first 60,000 Prius per model year (about $3,000):

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/...dtaxcredit.htm

If I miss out on the full government rebate then I would pay up to
$10,000 more than the Neon to drive a vehicle which I doubt will tow
my glider. Let's not even consider the extra cost for maintenance and
repairs or battery replacement costs.

For $10,000 I can drive my conventional technology Neon over 87,000
miles, assuming gasoline is $4/gal and 35mpg. And still tow my glider
most places (albeit less than 35mpg while towing).

Btw, I think vehicles like the Prius are great. But they are no
silver bullet (I know you didn't claim they were).

(Going a bit further OT):
If we truly believe what Al Gore is saying, then we would all
immediately stop using anything that creates CO2 and other greenhouse
gases (I guess we should still allow ourselves to breath as our bodies
do create CO2 and water vapor, both GHGs). Park all cars and trucks
permanently. Ground all airplanes and so forth. As far as
inconvenience to daily life, so what? We are talking about saving the
planet, right (at least according to Gore and some others)? Maybe
even if Gore believed what he is saying he would stop living in a huge
house that consumes many times the energy of the average US house. Or
is that four houses he owns?

Regards,

-Doug



Apologize if I missed this elsewhere in the thread, but FYI the Prius is
prohibited from towing, per the owner's manual.

The Highlander Hybrid is OK for towing, per its owner's manual.

Regards,
Bullwinkle