Another stall spin

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:11:45 PM UTC-6, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:

"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."

http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/



JP

"She's not answering the helm, Capt'n" - departure from controlled flight. I think there was an article in some aviation publication with the above title. It holds the key to maintaining control.

If you look carefully at Bruno's video of the inadvertent, incipient spin, you will see a moment where the stick is moving progressively left even as the glider accelerates its roll to the right. That's the instant he departed from controlled flight - the glider was not 'answering' his aileron input.. It should set off all the alarms in your head as it did in his. For me, it's like an electric shock.

Bruno's recovery was not textbook but it worked extremely well. He unloaded the wing by moving the stick forward unstalling the wing and reentering the realm of controlled flight where his ailerons worked normally. Even his narration indicated he didn't apply opposite rudder in a timely manner as the text books call for. Actually, I think he did the right thing - first unload the wing then, after it unstalls, fly the glider normally.

So far, I like every single post in this thread. It's about avoiding accidents by flying well enough to avoid them. That's the secret to safety.

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:11:45 PM UTC-6, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:

"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."

http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/



JP

Gliders don't ever "just spin" - pilots spin them. These accidents are not something which happens to pilots, they are something pilots do to themselves.

Practicing full spins at low altitude is stupid and deadly. If you want to practice how to avoid this kind of accident, practice incipient spins and recoveries - over and over. Learn to instinctively recognize the onset and to instinctively recover. Caught early, recoveries cost zero altitude. Look at Bruno's video again. How much altitude did it take for him to recover?

Tape some "pitch strings" to the sides of the canopy so you can see the angle off attack and how it slowly increases in slow flight until the glider stalls with the nose barely above the horizon then rudder a turn to see the real killer. Hauling the nose way above the horizon and kicking rudder is not how accidental spins start.

On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:

"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."

http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/



JP

On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:

"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."

http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/



JP

You all seem to "assume" that Jim was intentionally trying to execute controlled flight at a low altitude. He may,.... have experienced an extreme crisis, ie heart attack.
JG

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:22:58 PM UTC-4, jack gilbert wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote: From TA's Dansville contest write-up: "Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)." http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/ JP You all seem to "assume" that Jim was intentionally trying to execute controlled flight at a low altitude. He may,.... have experienced an extreme crisis, ie heart attack. JG

The issue of pilot incapacitation is part of this investigation. This is an appropriate part of any investigation.
That said, the sailplane was seen circling over one corner of the field, then shifted to another corner where it started to circle and subsequently departed from controlled flight.
This based upon 2 eyewitness accounts that I heard reported.
If I were in crisis, I wouldn't be circling, I'd be trying to land right now.
My personal impression, with information available at this time, leads me to believe this is a judgement error, possibly contributed to by dehydration..
It is common after accidents for people to think "he was too good a pilot to make such a mistake- it must be medical. None of us are that good so we must fly in ways that reduce the consequences of our mistakes.
Again FWIW
UH

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:51:37 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:22:58 PM UTC-4, jack gilbert wrote: On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote: From TA's Dansville contest write-up: "Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)." http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/ JP You all seem to "assume" that Jim was intentionally trying to execute controlled flight at a low altitude. He may,.... have experienced an extreme crisis, ie heart attack. JG The issue of pilot incapacitation is part of this investigation. This is an appropriate part of any investigation. That said, the sailplane was seen circling over one corner of the field, then shifted to another corner where it started to circle and subsequently departed from controlled flight. This based upon 2 eyewitness accounts that I heard reported. If I were in crisis, I wouldn't be circling, I'd be trying to land right now. My personal impression, with information available at this time, leads me to believe this is a judgement error, possibly contributed to by dehydration. It is common after accidents for people to think "he was too good a pilot to make such a mistake- it must be medical. None of us are that good so we must fly in ways that reduce the consequences of our mistakes. Again FWIW UH

I have flown with Jim for the last 15+ years. He was a CFIG that taught spin training in the Blanik l-13's and now in their L-13AC. Jim was what I would say is a conservative pilot. It is my understanding from others that he did not take water with him on the flight. It was a hot day and not sure if his judgement may have been alterted due to dehydration. I think it would be a good thing also to wait and see if the medical findings show any heart issues. Too me the spin is not cut and dry. Is their a dehydration issue? Medical issue? What would make him thermal so low at 3.5 hours into a local flight?

Tim Hanke H1

On 8/29/2012 8:23 AM, Tim Hanke wrote:

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:22:58 PM UTC-4, jack gilbert wrote:

You all seem to "assume" that Jim was intentionally trying to execute
controlled flight at a low altitude. He may,.... have experienced an
extreme crisis, ie heart attack. JG


I have flown with Jim for the last 15+ years. He was a CFIG that taught
spin training in the Blanik l-13's and now in their L-13AC. Jim was what I
would say is a conservative pilot. It is my understanding from others that
he did not take water with him on the flight. It was a hot day and not sure
if his judgement may have been alterted due to dehydration. I think it
would be a good thing also to wait and see if the medical findings show any
heart issues. Too me the spin is not cut and dry. Is their a dehydration
issue? Medical issue? What would make him thermal so low at 3.5 hours into
a local flight?

Tim Hanke H1


My heart goes out to all of Jim's family and friends; the soaring community is
a small, close-knit one. Each accidental death hurts in everyone's heart.
Talking about it can be a coping mechanism for some...it certainly is for me.

I can't speak for other previous contributors to this thread, but speaking for
myself I readily admit the circumstances of this particular accident may
always have very real uncertainty in my mind as to contributing factors.
(That's a common thing...)

That said, I've long tried to look at others' misfortunes by way of extracting
something(s) usefully life-enhancing for my own flying. That requires making
"working conclusions" based upon (sometimes) hidden assumptions, in the face
of uncertain facts.

Over the years I think I've encountered some "fairly well documented" glider
fatalities that did indeed involve medical incapacitation. It's always possible.

I've also encountered a whole lot more "apparent departures from controlled
flight too low for survivable reactions" that DON'T seem to have any obvious
medical connections (e.g. stroke, heart attack), to make me willing to hang my
hat on survivability always being " medically based." For me, ignoring the
many accidents that (also seem to) include intentional
risk-taking/margin-thinning just seems imprudent. Maybe that's just me. In any
event, *that's* where I've been coming from in this thread. We seem to have
a(nother) low-altitude departure from controlled flight in this instance. Why?
I don't know. We may never know with certainty. Certainly Jim Rizzo could have
made some fatally-flawed decisions. If he did, it doesn't make him a bad human
being or in any way change who he was, and from comments shared in this
thread, he seems to have been a decent, helpful person indeed...someone I
would have felt privileged to know. But given the historical litany of such
(low-altitude departure from controlled flight) fatal accidents, and given
this year's North American record of such accidents, to NOT discuss them as a
fact of aviation life might arguably be tantamount to sweeping potential
realities under the rug.

FWIW, having most of my gliding PIC experience in the
(low-humidity/sunny/evaporatively-cooling) intermountain west, I've no doubt
dehydration is: a) insidious (at multiple levels); b) potentially
life-threatening (again, at multiple levels, e.g. physiologically *and*
judgmentally); and c) easily possible for any glider pilot (and perhaps more
likely for an instructing pilot who typically must talk [respire more] a lot).

It should be no surprise to conclude dehydration-related accidents HAVE
happened. (Ref: Paul Schweizer's near-fatal committed-to-the-landing-pattern
crash in a Texas 1-26 Championships, easily found by researching the online
"Soaring" magazine files. Useful lessons therein...)

My guess is every contributor to this thread is coming from the perspective of
"trying to extract useful-to-them lessons" from Jim Rizzo's tragic accident,
and maybe (from the more experienced types, e.g. UH, John C.) to help "spread
the word about the "what's and why's" inherent to the risks of intentionally
attempting "low-altitude-saves." If it's necessary, I apologize for any
inadvertent pain occasioned by my contributions.

Sadly,

Bob W.

Personally, I think spin training is a great thing but in Canada, although spin training including full blooded spins is standard and a checkflight with an instructor at the beginning of every season including spins is mandatory too (I've never seen a club which doesn't require it and the Soaring Association Of Canada insurance requires it as well) we really don't have that great a safety record overall. I spin my 15b at least twice a year in addition to the two spins and two incipients I have to do on the checkflight plus the spins I do with students and I actually really enjoyed doing spins in the L-13's we used to have. Does that mean I'm immune from the possibility of having a low level stall-spin? I sure hope so but I have my doubts. Having the necessity of maintaining appropriate speed in the pattern and performing well banked turns to base and final drilled into me from very early on has likely served me well though.

Instructors are normally quite recent in spin recovery with the training glider. But the stall, spin and recovery characteristics of widely used trainers is quite different from stall, spin and recovery characteristics of the race ships we instructors use for our xc. Most of the high AoA things you can to with a K21 you can't do with one of the race-ships.

On Monday, September 3, 2012 10:48:44 AM UTC-7, hlt wrote:
Instructors are normally quite recent in spin recovery with the training glider. But the stall, spin and recovery characteristics of widely used trainers is quite different from stall, spin and recovery characteristics of the race ships we instructors use for our xc. Most of the high AoA things you can to with a K21 you can't do with one of the race-ships.

Just looking at the statistics in the US from the last couple of years alone, it shows that the majority of fatalities were CFIG, commercial pilots, FAA examiners, in other words, those who likely not only have spin training, but also provided spin training. We just lost another one. What gives? Go figure.

Ramy