Death On The North Sea Gunnery Range

As I understand it someone talked about training after entering combat.
Right.? And you took issue with that position,
Wrong. I made no such post.

as I do. Training must not be
confused with experience. Therefore everyone on the crew who undergoes
training
and later experience is qualified on this matter. Those who were never
trained
and flew and never had any experience are not qualified to comment.

Agreed. You weren't trained as a pilot, and therefore, should refrain from
commenting on pilot issues.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer




Kurt Todoroff


Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not compulsion.

sharkone wrote:
Agreed. You weren't trained as a pilot, and therefore, should refrain from
commenting on pilot issues.


Kurt,
That wasn't nice!
Art was trained as a bomb aimer/navigator and part of an aircrew. Safety of
flight is part of everyone's responsibility in a multiplace a/c. Monitoring the
progress of the a/c is the nav's responsibility as well as the pilots. That
includes postion relative to the water or ground.

OH Jeezus, I agreed with Art on something!
Rick

Subject: Death On The North Sea Gunnery Range
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 8/12/2004 7:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

sharkone wrote:
Agreed. You weren't trained as a pilot, and therefore, should refrain from
commenting on pilot issues.


Kurt,
That wasn't nice!
Art was trained as a bomb aimer/navigator and part of an aircrew. Safety of
flight is part of everyone's responsibility in a multiplace a/c. Monitoring
the
progress of the a/c is the nav's responsibility as well as the pilots. That
includes postion relative to the water or ground.

OH Jeezus, I agreed with Art on something!
Rick


Well he's right except that he never mentioned pilot in any of the previous
posts. Had he done so I never would have responded as I did.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art wrote:
Just give me an E6--B, a Wheems plotter and a Norden
to be used as a dirftmeter and I'll navigate you around the world.

Art,
A compass would be nice, a sextant would be cool to have also.
An ADF would be nice to listen to the music while I wandered aimlessly around
the world.

Rick

Kurt wrote in response to:
That wasn't nice!
the following:
No, it wasn't. However, I was paraphrasing Art's long standing act of
condescension, against himself.

Under those conditions keep shooting!
It won't make any difference to Art, he's oblivious to anything military after
the Big One.

Every other old time Warrant Officer that I ever met or served with was a whole
lot more tolerant and reasonable than Art. I guess Art didn't serve long enough
to acquire those characteristics.

MISTER (all caps intended) Taylor kept me out of a lot of trouble and taught me
a lot of the ropes when I was a brown bar!

Rick Clark
MFE

Subject: Death On The North Sea Gunnery Range
From: ELETEME (Kurt R. Todoroff)
Date: 8/12/2004 1:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Agreed. You weren't trained as a pilot, and therefore, should refrain
from
commenting on pilot issues.


Kurt,
That wasn't nice!

No, it wasn't. However, I was paraphrasing Art's long standing act of
condescension, against himself. He'll probably deny having ever done this,
and
then reply to this post by inquiring if I've ever been in combat. (I made
this
clear, without being asked, many posts ago.) He might even claim that a
person
may only post to this newsgroup and even discuss any topic on this planet
ONLY
if his name is Art Kramer, and who was a B-26 bombadier in World War II only
in
his unit.

Art was trained as a bomb aimer/navigator and part of an aircrew. Safety of
flight is part of everyone's responsibility in a multiplace a/c. Monitoring
the
progress of the a/c is the nav's responsibility as well as the pilots. That
includes postion relative to the water or ground.

Nobody supports the integrated crew concept more than me. Every WSO that
I've
flown with knew my position that crew coordination and individual
responsibility were essential to safe mission completion. None of my WSOs
had
any doubt in their mind about my position.


OH Jeezus, I agreed with Art on something!
Rick


Well he's right except that he never mentioned pilot in any of the previous
posts. Had he done so I never would have responded as I did.


Art, that's twice that you've misrepresented my posts in this newsgroup
subject. Either you're lazy or you're not telling the truth. I suggest that
you reread these postings. As many others have said, you have previously
made
valuable contributions to this newsgroup by sharing your World War II
aviation
experiences. However, your arrogant and condescending manner to visitors,
your
sloppy review of, and responses to postings, your denial of your actions that
have clearly been documented in this newsgroup, have diminished your
credibility, perhaps irreparably. Your disposition to antagonize others, and
then avoid their important questions is legend here. Your often flip,
smart-alecky retorts are the stuff of children, not adults who command
respect.
I admire accomplishment. I pity people who's insecure personalities are
based
on conceit and arrogance. Please leave your obnoxious conceit and your
personality shortcomings at the door before joining us. There's no need to
rip
your shirt open and flash the big S to us, because it just doesn't exist.

If you can manage some humility, and act down to earth, please feel free to
join us.



Kurt Todoroff



I recently bought a new computer and faoiled to transfer all the PLONKS from
the old to the new. I shall now begin to correct that oversight.

PLONK.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Reminds me of an old WW II navigators joke. I'll pose it as a riddle. Two
navigators are talking One asks the other, "What is the most important thing we
use for navigation?" The other answers, " A penknife".. Can anyone on the NG
guess why he chose to say a penkife? (:-)

When you're navigating with paper and pencil, you really need a working
point on the pencil?


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: Death On The North Sea Gunnery Range
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 8/12/2004 4:24 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Reminds me of an old WW II navigators joke. I'll pose it as a riddle. Two
navigators are talking One asks the other, "What is the most important thing
we
use for navigation?" The other answers, " A penknife".. Can anyone on the
NG
guess why he chose to say a penkife? (:-)

When you're navigating with paper and pencil, you really need a working
point on the pencil?


Well done Paul. Eactly right.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Paul answered Art's riddle with:
When you're navigating with paper and pencil, you really need a working
point on the pencil?

Art replied:
Well done Paul. Eactly right.


Not good enough Art, really old time, mechanical pencils prevent all those
pesky shavings from floating around and.....really good navigators use ink
(well ballpoint).
Only Russian Cosmonauts use pencils. any more.
Pilot brand "Razor Points", blue or black, work really well under the red
light.

Rick
Now give me back my eraser

In article ,
(OXMORON1) writes:
Paul answered Art's riddle with:
When you're navigating with paper and pencil, you really need a working
point on the pencil?

Art replied:
Well done Paul. Eactly right.


Not good enough Art, really old time, mechanical pencils prevent all those
pesky shavings from floating around and.....really good navigators use ink
(well ballpoint).
Only Russian Cosmonauts use pencils. any more.
Pilot brand "Razor Points", blue or black, work really well under the red
light.

The red ones don't.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster