Airlines Cut Minimum Pilot Experience to 500 hours and Below

On 2007-11-27 21:48:35 -0800, "Morgans" said:


"C J Campbell" wrote

There are no new pilots without flight instructors. But airlines are
grabbing flight instructors before they have been working for two years,
so the pool of flight instructors is shrinking very rapidly. It has become
so bad that places like Embry-Riddle have been offering huge incentives
for instructors to stay beyond their 600 hour commitment. Those who are
willing to stay are given a salary of $42,000 a year plus a full benefits
package.

Although this sounds like a big improvement, and it probably is, the sad
thing is that 42 thou. is what they should have been making, in the first
place.

I know, supply demand, yada, yada, yada... All I am saying is that this
amount of pay should be expected for a person doing a demanding, highly
skilled job, and to have enough money to have a family and a nice house, and
a decent standard of living. Even then, it sure is not going to be a
luxurious standard of living, at that pay level.

It all boils down to the fact that flying is such a cool job for so many
people, that they are willing to work for lower pay, just to do the job.

Can't argue with you there. At least, people should be paying *me* a
lot more than they do. :-)
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Nov 27, 9:47 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in ...







"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"F. Baum" wrote:

On Nov 27, 8:43 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Many of us have a great successful career without every being a member
of a union. In fact, most Americans are not union members. In fact,
the top paying jobs in the U.S. are non-union. So I think your point
is countered.

Robert, you rascal ! I love your simplistic answers. Lets take a look
at things that didnt exist before organized labor; Child labor laws,
healt care benifits, 40 Hour work weeks, severance, paid vacation,
benifits packages, retirement, DC plans,overtime and the list goes
on................ If you had a great career with any of these benies
you can thank organized labor
FB

You are assuming that these "benies" exist because of organized
labor.

Question: what laws would continue to exist if unions went away
and what laws would go away?

And which would have evolved naturally with increased productivity and
increased expertise in management (that had been going on for a couple
hundred years). That's out of Baum's mental grasp, unfortunately.
--

Funny thing is, you are all right. Everything mentioned here both pro and
con has contributed to the wages paid in this country today for most every
job. Child labor laws, health care benefits, 40 Hour work weeks, severance,
paid vacation, benefits packages, retirement, overtime pay, minimum wage,
etc, etc. It's all had a balancing effect on the wages we all draw every
day. Without unions we would all be working for less, no matter what our
profession.

None of my people are under a collective bargaining agreement. There
are business reasons to provide compensation packages that are
attractive to gain and retain employees. There are business reasons to
maintain productivity. However, there is not one person here would
believes his job would be subsidized if we no longer had customers. If
anyones (including my) position no longer makes business sense it will
be elimiated. That's what makes an economy efficient and maximizes
return to investors. If you don't like it you should work for the
gov't.

-Robert

Without a doubt there are some people 'on the street' who can be
trained as pilots, but the prudent move would be to choose candidates
from an enriched population. Of course it means there are some really
potentially good candidates who would therefore not get selected, but
the wise manager will do everything she can to choose well.
Interviewing a thousand off the street to find a 'keeper' is a lot
less efficient than choosing someone from a target rich environment.

This is not theory, but real life stuff.

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:42:55 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

What is it that you like about it?


Lots! IN no particular order...

The beach, on the Atlantic Ocean, including the 4WD drivable portion
on Cape Cod
Tibetan food
Falafel
Awesome pizza on every street corner
Broadway & Times Square
The New York Rangers, playing in MSG.
Radio City Music and Carnegie Hall
Italian food near the real Old North Church
Killer Museums, EVERYWHERE!
Fenway Park
Yankee Stadium
The bicycling, on and off-road
Vermont and New Hampshire, especially Tuckerman's Ravine on Mt.
Washington
Block Island, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, and Provincetown
Whale Watching
Kayaking the hundreds of lakes and rivers
Lincoln Center
Killer fine woodworking resources
Antiques, including entire homes and mansions
Greenwich Village @ 2 AM
The Pattagunks and NY's Southern Tier
The Adirondacks
Direct to most anywhere in Europe, Asia, or North America, from JFK
Newport Tall Ships
Boston Pops on July 4th
Tanglewood all summer
90F summer and 0F winter days
No earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanos, and weak hurricanes.
The Yale Art Gallery's non-public furniture collection
Toad's Place
CBGB (RIP!)
Bike New York
Our neighborhoods don't look like the rest of the country, no "pool
sized" back yards and concrete block walls
A "big" development has 25-35 homes. G

I'm tired of typing...

A $45/mo. tie down at a non-towered field with a nicely maintained,
5000x100 ft., 250 MSL runway, with a 3500ft. crosswind strip, and the
best app/dep controllers in the world @ BDL.

Any questions? G

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 9:47 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in
...







"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"F. Baum" wrote:

On Nov 27, 8:43 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Many of us have a great successful career without every being a
member
of a union. In fact, most Americans are not union members. In fact,
the top paying jobs in the U.S. are non-union. So I think your
point
is countered.

Robert, you rascal ! I love your simplistic answers. Lets take a look
at things that didnt exist before organized labor; Child labor laws,
healt care benifits, 40 Hour work weeks, severance, paid vacation,
benifits packages, retirement, DC plans,overtime and the list goes
on................ If you had a great career with any of these benies
you can thank organized labor
FB

You are assuming that these "benies" exist because of organized
labor.

Question: what laws would continue to exist if unions went away
and what laws would go away?

And which would have evolved naturally with increased productivity and
increased expertise in management (that had been going on for a couple
hundred years). That's out of Baum's mental grasp, unfortunately.
--

Funny thing is, you are all right. Everything mentioned here both pro and
con has contributed to the wages paid in this country today for most
every
job. Child labor laws, health care benefits, 40 Hour work weeks,
severance,
paid vacation, benefits packages, retirement, overtime pay, minimum wage,
etc, etc. It's all had a balancing effect on the wages we all draw every
day. Without unions we would all be working for less, no matter what our
profession.

None of my people are under a collective bargaining agreement. There
are business reasons to provide compensation packages that are
attractive to gain and retain employees. There are business reasons to
maintain productivity. However, there is not one person here would
believes his job would be subsidized if we no longer had customers. If
anyones (including my) position no longer makes business sense it will
be elimiated. That's what makes an economy efficient and maximizes
return to investors. If you don't like it you should work for the
gov't.


I believe and agree with you Robert, 100%.

I do feel unions have been quite useful to all of us for "raising the bar"
globally across the US of the past 75 or whatever years. But I also believe
many of them have had a very negative impact as well, and should take
responsibility for many jobs leaving the country.

Over the years I have work as a member of both good and bad unions, and in
good and bad non union environments. While I can fully appreciate their
value, I have also seen situations where they were nothing but a parasite to
not only the companies they control, but their membership as well.

I also worked some 17 years in a non union environment, where without
warning I was singled out and terminated just two years short of my first
retirement step, effectively cutting the guts out of my retirement package,
with nothing but awards and letters of recommendations in my personal file.
So the door really does swing both ways.

On Nov 27, 9:58 pm, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

That's out of Baum's mental grasp, unfortunately.

MXMatt !!! speaking of mental grasp, how are things at the funny
farm ?
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 9:47 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in
...

Question: what laws would continue to exist if unions went away
and what laws would go away?

And which would have evolved naturally with increased productivity and
increased expertise in management (that had been going on for a couple
hundred years). That's out of Baum's mental grasp, unfortunately.
--

Funny thing is, you are all right. Everything mentioned here both pro and
con has contributed to the wages paid in this country today for most
every
job. Child labor laws, health care benefits, 40 Hour work weeks,
severance,
paid vacation, benefits packages, retirement, overtime pay, minimum wage,
etc, etc. It's all had a balancing effect on the wages we all draw every
day. Without unions we would all be working for less, no matter what our
profession.

Without unions we'd all be working for more. Wages are, like any other
economic good, based on supply and demand. What unions do is shift the wages
from one industry to another. In that case, somethign has to give. The only
thing that can raise wages in improved productivity and union have been
instrumental in trashing productivity. In the long run, unions have
probably done more to depress wages and ruin their industries. As such I
haven't an ounce of sympathy for them and their thug cohorts.



None of my people are under a collective bargaining agreement. There
are business reasons to provide compensation packages that are
attractive to gain and retain employees. There are business reasons to
maintain productivity. However, there is not one person here would
believes his job would be subsidized if we no longer had customers. If
anyones (including my) position no longer makes business sense it will
be elimiated. That's what makes an economy efficient and maximizes
return to investors. If you don't like it you should work for the
gov't.

Interestingly, American based branches like Honda and Toyota do not allow
unions and their employees are at the top in terms of production and
compensation and their futures look bright compared to GM, Ford and Chrysler
who are at death's door.

--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

wrote in message
...
Without a doubt there are some people 'on the street' who can be
trained as pilots, but the prudent move would be to choose candidates
from an enriched population. Of course it means there are some really
potentially good candidates who would therefore not get selected, but
the wise manager will do everything she can to choose well.
Interviewing a thousand off the street to find a 'keeper' is a lot
less efficient than choosing someone from a target rich environment.

This is not theory, but real life stuff.

Actually, it's gibberish.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:42:55 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

What is it that you like about it?


Lots! IN no particular order...

The beach, on the Atlantic Ocean, including the 4WD drivable portion
on Cape Cod
Tibetan food
Falafel
Awesome pizza on every street corner
Broadway & Times Square
The New York Rangers, playing in MSG.
Radio City Music and Carnegie Hall
Italian food near the real Old North Church
Killer Museums, EVERYWHERE!
Fenway Park
Yankee Stadium
The bicycling, on and off-road
Vermont and New Hampshire, especially Tuckerman's Ravine on Mt.
Washington
Block Island, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, and Provincetown
Whale Watching
Kayaking the hundreds of lakes and rivers
Lincoln Center
Killer fine woodworking resources
Antiques, including entire homes and mansions
Greenwich Village @ 2 AM
The Pattagunks and NY's Southern Tier
The Adirondacks
Direct to most anywhere in Europe, Asia, or North America, from JFK
Newport Tall Ships
Boston Pops on July 4th
Tanglewood all summer
90F summer and 0F winter days
No earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanos, and weak hurricanes.
The Yale Art Gallery's non-public furniture collection
Toad's Place
CBGB (RIP!)
Bike New York
Our neighborhoods don't look like the rest of the country, no "pool
sized" back yards and concrete block walls
A "big" development has 25-35 homes. G

I'm tired of typing...

A $45/mo. tie down at a non-towered field with a nicely maintained,
5000x100 ft., 250 MSL runway, with a 3500ft. crosswind strip, and the
best app/dep controllers in the world @ BDL.


Other than specifics like Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Greenwich and whale
watching, we have most all that, (or better, such as the Rockies vs the
Adirondacks) here in Wyoming.

Of course, you can go to the Cheyenne public pools and see 300 lb gals in
spandex as a substitute for whale watching .
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

Matt, you may not understand labor laws very well. The US branches of
Honda et al can work at keeping unions out, but they cannot by dictate
keep them out.

And if you choose to interview street picks instead of an enriched
pool of potential employees, you must be doing something else very
right because your HR folks are wasting time and resources..




On Nov 28, 10:23 pm, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in ...





On Nov 27, 9:47 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in
...

Question: what laws would continue to exist if unions went away
and what laws would go away?

And which would have evolved naturally with increased productivity and
increased expertise in management (that had been going on for a couple
hundred years). That's out of Baum's mental grasp, unfortunately.
--

Funny thing is, you are all right. Everything mentioned here both pro and
con has contributed to the wages paid in this country today for most
every
job. Child labor laws, health care benefits, 40 Hour work weeks,
severance,
paid vacation, benefits packages, retirement, overtime pay, minimum wage,
etc, etc. It's all had a balancing effect on the wages we all draw every
day. Without unions we would all be working for less, no matter what our
profession.

Without unions we'd all be working for more. Wages are, like any other
economic good, based on supply and demand. What unions do is shift the wages
from one industry to another. In that case, somethign has to give. The only
thing that can raise wages in improved productivity and union have been
instrumental in trashing productivity. In the long run, unions have
probably done more to depress wages and ruin their industries. As such I
haven't an ounce of sympathy for them and their thug cohorts.



None of my people are under a collective bargaining agreement. There
are business reasons to provide compensation packages that are
attractive to gain and retain employees. There are business reasons to
maintain productivity. However, there is not one person here would
believes his job would be subsidized if we no longer had customers. If
anyones (including my) position no longer makes business sense it will
be elimiated. That's what makes an economy efficient and maximizes
return to investors. If you don't like it you should work for the
gov't.

Interestingly, American based branches like Honda and Toyota do not allow
unions and their employees are at the top in terms of production and
compensation and their futures look bright compared to GM, Ford and Chrysler
who are at death's door.

--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -