Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS - Video

On Nov 23, 4:19*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 11:43*am, a wrote:

The thing you may be missing is you are used to flying a certain glide
slope, probably defined by the VASI. On a short field for me at least
the final approach over the obstruction to flare is MUCH steeper. I'm
trading off comfort and some margin for a very short roll-out.

I bet you are right on what I am used to for glide. *Instrument world
does make a mess of visual approaches and it's nuances.

Generally I don't miss the VASI or PAPI, as that is how I learned )
keeping the bug spot on the numbers), but what I haven't had much
practice "for real reasons" is that 50 foot obtacle clearance.

Imaginary trees not quite as "intimidating" when the real deal trees
tend to block the lights at approach end of the runway on a low glide
path. :-) and I really didn't feel that low coming into M23 as I would
have made the runway (without the trees) *had the fan quit. *The last
short field airport I went to was 2700 foot and it was much easier
since there were no obstacles.

So in a nutshell, short fields I can hang with, it's that extra
variable having trees :-) that give it a little extra slam dunking
challenge for me.

I can pretty much assure you if you get slow with a steep approach
angle the trees will be less a mind games problem. Come in at a
steeper approach angle, aim for touchdown 1200 feet short of the
turnoff -- you'll be surprised at how easy the short field technique
is. 2700 feet is simply not a short field, I'd be aiming to touch down
1500 feet from the turn off in a routine landing. If you go slower in
effect you'll be flying an approach angle a 172 with some flaps
deployed flies, and if it feels dicey the first couple of times
there's plenty of room for pitching down a bit. Try it at 2000 feet
agl, get a bit slower, then watch airspeed and rate of descent. You're
apt to be surprised at how comfortable you'd be at something a lot
more than 3 degrees.

A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the
center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney,
normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit
sideways.

All of this, of course, assumes one is very familiar with the
airplane. I am very comfortable closer to the edge in my airplane than
I would be in something like a 172, which is a much more forgiving
airplane, unless I had a bunch of recent hours in it. I would not do
any of the things I mentioned with a non pilot aboard, and even with
one who's not a CFI I'd be doing a lot of talking to avoid having the
right hand seat badly stained. After all, I have to get out of the
airplane over that seat.

Had a thought -- be fun to do some of those things with some of the
pseudo pilots who post here aboard. My pre flight check list would
include the challenge "Depends?" with the required response "On".

On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:
On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers


I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:

On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers



I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)


Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not
sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once
the airplane has weight on the mains. The more weight the more
effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about
a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For
what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags
the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very
firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway.
I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left,
but on the other hand never had land off field. I suppose if some
condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than
experiment with something else. The theme of this thread has changed
into encouraging us all to do that practice.

You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to
take part in that short field hamburger bet I mentioned earlier
unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to
send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's.

On Nov 25, 1:45*am, a wrote:
On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:



On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:

On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers

I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent..

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not
sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once
the airplane has weight on the mains.

Initiatially the aerodynamic factoers are more important, but keeping
the nose wheel off for as long as possible maximizes braking. Then
again I would bow to higher authority.

The more weight the more
effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about
a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For
what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags
the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very
firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway.
I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left,
but on the other hand never had land off field.

OK. An additional factor is on a rough field the nose wheel is a weak
point so keeping it off may prevent firewall damage.

I suppose if some
condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than
experiment with something else. *The theme of this thread has changed
into encouraging us all to do that practice.


As I see it, being good at short field is a good idea. The iron fairey
can quit at any time... Being able to drop the plane into a small area
adds a lot to my confidence...

You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to
take part in that short field hamburger bet I *mentioned earlier
unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to
send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's.

AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into
much better than that. I recommend it!

Cheers