Squall torpedo

wrote in message
...
In article , "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


The Skhval is a short range straight runner that does NOT
home in on the steering gear or screws. The Russian
torpedo that IS dangerous in this respect is the large
Type 53-65 passive wake homing torpedo,

Keith



I find this interesting. What do you mean by "passive wake homing"?

I know what passive guidance means; I'm just not sure what passive
signature a wake-homing Type 53-65 might be guiding on.


There are a number of techniques for detecting wakes which
include detecting the velocity changes caused by eddying in
the wake and also by IR sensors which detect the temperature
changes.

Whichever method is used the sensor looks upward and the rudder is
set automatically to turn the torpedo through a fixed angle
each time the torpedo crosses the wake of its target.
This enables a torpedo to follow a sinuous track towards the ship
(provided it enters the wake at an acute angle).

It is relative simple for the seeker to determine the boundaries
of the wake, which extends many lengths behind the target.
A wake is difficult to simulate, so countermeasures relying on
seduction are ineffective which is why are Navies showing so
much interest in Hard Kill defenses.

Keith

In article , "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article , "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


The Skhval is a short range straight runner that does NOT
home in on the steering gear or screws. The Russian
torpedo that IS dangerous in this respect is the large
Type 53-65 passive wake homing torpedo,

Keith



I find this interesting. What do you mean by "passive wake homing"?

I know what passive guidance means; I'm just not sure what passive
signature a wake-homing Type 53-65 might be guiding on.


There are a number of techniques for detecting wakes which
include detecting the velocity changes caused by eddying in
the wake and also by IR sensors which detect the temperature
changes.

Whichever method is used the sensor looks upward and the rudder is
set automatically to turn the torpedo through a fixed angle
each time the torpedo crosses the wake of its target.
This enables a torpedo to follow a sinuous track towards the ship
(provided it enters the wake at an acute angle).

It is relative simple for the seeker to determine the boundaries
of the wake, which extends many lengths behind the target.
A wake is difficult to simulate, so countermeasures relying on
seduction are ineffective which is why are Navies showing so
much interest in Hard Kill defenses.

Keith




Interesting.

I hadn't seen any prior suggestions that torpedoes might conduct wake
homing via IR or eddy detection. This'll give me something to do after
football and a couple of pints.

Thanks.


----
"Eddies in the time stream"
"Is he. What's he doing there?"

----------
In article ,
(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

Whoops there goes another Super Carrier (steering gear & screws) !

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memor...the_squall.htm

Both you and the website author are being goofy.

The site clearly states that this is an _anti-submarine_ torpedo.

In addition, the website is wrong about this being the cause for the sinking
of the Kursk. The Russians have concluded that it was actually an older,
conventional torpedo that probably caused the loss.




D

"U.S. intelligence has received several indications that the Russians
were working on an ADVANCED, MUCH LONGER RANGE SHKVAL . Russia's
Itar-Tass news agency reported in February 1998, for instance, that
tests of a "modernized" Shkval were scheduled by Russia's Pacific Fleet
for that spring."

FEBRUARY 1998 - THAT'S SIX YEARS AGO ! PLENTY OF TIME FOR EXTRA R & D ?


Other informed sources claim that the missile is in fact an offensive
weapon designed to destroy entire AIRCRAFT CARRIER battle groups with a
higher-yield nuclear warhead. During a nuclear war, it could even be
directed at a port or coastal land target.

"As there are NO KNOWN COUNTERMEASURES TO SUCH A WEAPON," states
Miller's 1995 Jane's article, "its deployment could have a significant
effect on future maritime operations, both surface and subsurface, and
could put Western naval forces at a considerable disadvantage."

Guidance at speed had been unavailable on the original model of the
torpedo due to the difficulty sonar has in penetrating the surrounding
gas envelope and what experts call "self-noise," but the Russians are
said to have now added a homing capability to the deadly device.
Reportedly, the improved homing version runs out at very high speed,
then slows to search for its target. If this is true, the new version
troubles top U.S. Navy brass, who would like to know as much as
possible about the advanced Shkval before it finds its way to places
such as China and Iran.

Gundarov also wrote that the Kursk was retrofitted during the same
period with a potentially problematic torpedo-launching system against
the wishes of many high-ranking Russian navy officials who considered
it to be "complicated and dangerous." The existing high-cost
silver-zinc battery and propeller system used for years to send the
Shkval out to a safe distance and orient it toward its target before
its rocket engine ignites was replaced. The new system employs a
higher-risk technology that uses a gas stream to propel the torpedo out
the tube. When the weapon is triggered, liquid fuel is burned
generating pressurized gas that shoots the Shkval out the launch tube.



D wrote:
----------
In article ,
(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

Whoops there goes another Super Carrier (steering gear & screws) !

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memor...the_squall.htm

Both you and the website author are being goofy.

The site clearly states that this is an _anti-submarine_ torpedo.

In addition, the website is wrong about this being the cause for the
sinking
of the Kursk. The Russians have concluded that it was actually an
older,
conventional torpedo that probably caused the loss.




D

You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.

The Russians have retired their 'Golden Bullet' 45 knot Alpha Class Submarines.

A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?

Interesting no ?

Merlin



"D" wrote in message nk.net...
----------
In article ,
(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

Whoops there goes another Super Carrier (steering gear & screws) !

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memor...the_squall.htm

Both you and the website author are being goofy.

The site clearly states that this is an _anti-submarine_ torpedo.

In addition, the website is wrong about this being the cause for the sinking
of the Kursk. The Russians have concluded that it was actually an older,
conventional torpedo that probably caused the loss.




D

(Spitfiremk9) wrote:

You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.
[...]
A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?

Which would completely defeat the any modern submarine's greatest advantage
- stealth. You might as well paint a huge, luminescent, noisy bulls' eye
on it.

| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"

"Spitfiremk9" wrote in message
. ..
You MAY be correct about the old torpedo. There was a British TV
programme that pointed with good evidence to this fact.

However - I think a point is being missed here ?

Super-Cavitation Technology ?

What can be applied to a torpedo can equally applied to a submarine.


Not easily, rocket propelled submarines would seem
a non trivial development.

The Russians have retired their 'Golden Bullet' 45 knot Alpha Class
Submarines.


Given their design , liquid metal cooled rectors etc that
was very wide of them

A 'Super-Cavitating' submarine that uses this ability as a 'sprint' ?


And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Interesting no ?


No

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Is submarine's stealth cruising the only situation the submarine can be
caught in? Let's say it's already located and has a torpedo coming at it. Or
some situation develops where it has to travel very fast to some place, e.g.
some rescue operation or something, it doesn't really matter. In those
situations I wouldn't give a **** about some SOSUS tracking my ass but would
be very thankful to the engineers that provided me with this neat feature.

"agh" wrote in message ...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
And makes so much noise that every SOSUS station on the
planet hears them

Is submarine's stealth cruising the only situation the submarine can be
caught in? Let's say it's already located and has a torpedo coming at it.
Or
some situation develops where it has to travel very fast to some place,
e.g.
some rescue operation or something, it doesn't really matter. In those
situations I wouldn't give a **** about some SOSUS tracking my ass but
would
be very thankful to the engineers that provided me with this neat feature.



The question is how much are you prepared to give up
to get it ?

Supercavitation requires a large gas generating capacity
and humongous amount of thrust. To achieve this the
Shkval has a honking great solid fuel rocket that takes
up most of its interior space and has a range of less than
6 miles.

Push your submarine 5 miles downrange this way and you'll
delay the helicopter by perhaps 3 minutes while providing him
with a confirmation of your presence and a precise location

Personally I'd prefer a decent decoy.

Keith