Stealth bird

good question.. weather radar tracks water.. imagine that.. stronger returns
means more water means a bigger storm

we used to track migrating birds with ATC primary "skin paint".. especially
in flocks.. like the "Flying V" duck formations..

the radar was reflecting off the water in the ducks bellies.., this was
confirmed when "multiple traffic" was called to an aircraft.. "type and
altitude unknown", and the response from the pilot was... "nothing over
there but a flock of ducks heading south along the river"

BT

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Big John" wrote in message
...

The only thing that reflects radar is metal or things (like paint)
that have metal in them.


Then how does weather radar work?

Steven

Oops. Showing my age. In my day all we had was 'pulse' radar. They now
have 'doppler' which will show the rain drops G

Big John

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:21:26 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Big John" wrote in message
.. .

The only thing that reflects radar is metal or things (like paint)
that have metal in them.


Then how does weather radar work?

"Big John" wrote in message
...

Oops. Showing my age. In my day all we had was 'pulse' radar. They now
have 'doppler' which will show the rain drops G


Precipitation was shown on radar long before 'doppler' came along.

they can still see my composite fiberglass glider with "skin paint", they
are required to watch for "primary returns" below FL180. Some aircraft are
still exempt from carrying transponders.. like balloons, gliders and J-3
cubs..

BT

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Big John wrote:

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc. It would take a
lot of expertise to get the RCS down to stealth levels.

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc.


Not on ATC radar there ain't.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message

news

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc.


Not on ATC radar there ain't.


Funny.. local ATC calls glider traffic to the inbound airliners.. we (the
gliders) are not talking to ATC.. but they can see our glass (and metal)
birds just fine.. they just don't know our altitude.. LAS TRACON

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:vVfxb.7883$ML6.4790@fed1read01...

Funny.. local ATC calls glider traffic to the inbound airliners.. we (the
gliders) are not talking to ATC.. but they can see our glass (and metal)
birds just fine.. they just don't know our altitude.. LAS TRACON


Radar can be fickle.

BTIZ

Was in a flight of two P-51's over southern Japan when ground control
asked us if we had enough fuel to intercept an unknown target?

Went 'buster' and established a rate of closure, at about three miles
distance, the target accelerated away from us and went off GCI scope.
We didn't see anything visually.

Geese?
Flying saucer?
?????????????

Came back to cruise power and after RTB debriefed. Was reported up
channels as 'Flying Saucer' even though no visual.

Big John.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 05:29:19 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:vVfxb.7883$ML6.4790@fed1read01...

Funny.. local ATC calls glider traffic to the inbound airliners.. we (the
gliders) are not talking to ATC.. but they can see our glass (and metal)
birds just fine.. they just don't know our altitude.. LAS TRACON


Radar can be fickle.

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar", also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Dave

Your words brought back memories. TNX. Should have remembered.

I still think homebuilders can build a Stealth bird.

Some shielding like in the 117 might be an easy way to reduce return
from areas that are not 'glass'.

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:06:41 -0500, Dave Butler
wrote:

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar", also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave