flying in snow

a major concern.. especially if snow is heavy.. is blocking the air filter
intake and forcing use of an alternate air source.. does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"

BT

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds
that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing,
then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in
that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or
sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"


The former, I believe, though I'll check it out. It's an archer (we also have
a dakota, which should be similar). There is an "alternate air" lever, but
that's an alternate static source.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...

does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"


The former, I believe, though I'll check it out. It's an archer (we also have
a dakota, which should be similar). There is an "alternate air" lever, but
that's an alternate static source.


Technically it's both. When you use carb heat in an Archer, it
bypasses the regular intake path / air filter and sends unfiltered
warm air to the intake manifold (that would make it an "alternate air"
source). This is quite useful when your intake is blocked. I've had
to use it twice for that reason. Once because of snow buildup on the
filter and another time when I somehow sucked up a plastic supermarket
bag (commonly seen floating around in thermals here in the southwest).

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Jose,

The carburetor heat provides air from a source inside the cowling and
bypasses the air filter. It is an alternate air source for the engine
and is heated.

All the best,
Rick

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...

does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"


The former, I believe, though I'll check it out. It's an archer (we also have
a dakota, which should be similar). There is an "alternate air" lever, but
that's an alternate static source.

Jose

Jose,

Lot of bad information and old wives' tales on this thread. sigh

Outside of clouds, when you are flying in snow it will not stick to
the airframe. Even heavy wet snow will not stick, so airframe icing
is not a problem. The concerns to be aware of when flying in snow are
the very serious restriction to visibility that often occurs. When
flying IFR you may be able to see the ground during the approach, but
not pick out the runway until you are over it. You've got 500 feet of
vertical visibility, and about that horizontally, but you see the
runway from above and try to circle for it. Lots of dead pilots
because of that error. Once you start the turn you lose sight of the
runway and have no visual reference horizontally, so you are trying to
do a circle to land without the requisite vis requirements. It's best
to miss the approach immediately. If you are VFR and fly into snow
the problem is that vis can change very fast and can put you into IMC
in seconds. Otherwise, the concerns about flying in snow are P
static, if your airplane doesn't have good static wicks. If you start
to lose your radios you can try holding your hand, fingers spread
wide, about a half inch from the windshield and move it back and
forth. Sometimes you'll feel the static discharge you get after
walking across a rug and touching metal, as the airplane discharges,
and you get the radios back for a few minutes. It doesn't always
work, but it works often enough it's worth a try. The other concern
is with wet snow in that it can pack the air filter on the engine air
intake and either reduce the air flow or block it. At that point you
just switch to carb heat or alternate air as appropriate for your
aircraft.

You will only get rime ice when in clouds, you will not get it in
snow. Clear ice comes from freezing rain and is another matter
entirely.

Suggest you check out back issues of IFR Magazine for more information
on flying in snow. They've dealt with it at length. Here in Michigan
we fly in snow all the time, it's just no big deal. With frequent
lake effect snow you learn to chose an altitude to stay out of the
clouds because that's where the ice is. If it's snowing, you're fine
(if you are IFR, you may be screwed if VFR because of vis). Runway
operations are a different matter, and getting around the airport may
range from merely exciting to impossible. You may also find that
after stopping your brakes have melted snow which then refroze as ice
and locked one or both wheels. On landing you tend not to try for
greasers as you may have a locked wheel, and it takes a while for
enough friction on the tire to build up to apply enough rotational
force to break the ice. In the meantime you listen to a tire squeal
and you have little rolling control from that tire, so if you touch
down a bit firmly the wheels will get a good rotational jolt from the
runway and break the ice fairly quickly. Just be ready to steer the
airplane with aerodyanmic controls after landing as the runway may be
very slippery and a tire or two may not be turning.

All the best,
Rick

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing, then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose

"Rick Durden" wrote in message
m...
Lot of bad information and old wives' tales on this thread. sigh

Unfortunately, Rick is adding to that bad information.

Outside of clouds, when you are flying in snow it will not stick to
the airframe. Even heavy wet snow will not stick, so airframe icing
is not a problem.

Do NOT believe this. I have flown outside of clouds in snow and seen it
stick. As I mentioned, typically only a very light amount winds up on the
forward surfaces of the airplane, but it is absolutely false that snow
outside of clouds will not stick to the airframe.

The rest of his post (except where he revisits this point) is informative,
and does introduce a couple of points not already mentioned.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Rick Durden" wrote in message
m...
Lot of bad information and old wives' tales on this thread. sigh

Unfortunately, Rick is adding to that bad information.

Outside of clouds, when you are flying in snow it will not stick to
the airframe. Even heavy wet snow will not stick, so airframe icing
is not a problem.

Do NOT believe this. I have flown outside of clouds in snow and seen it
stick. As I mentioned, typically only a very light amount winds up on the
forward surfaces of the airplane, but it is absolutely false that snow
outside of clouds will not stick to the airframe.

The rest of his post (except where he revisits this point) is informative,
and does introduce a couple of points not already mentioned.

Rick has got a lot of experience. Personally, I'm not so sure I would
dismiss it easily. I'm sure you to though, and If I'd seen
differently I might look for other reasons: local temperature
differences perhaps? I'm no snow expert, but have lived in snowy
climates so I know that when snow's near the freezing point it's
wetter and sticks more readily.

-Malcolm Teas

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message
om...
Rick has got a lot of experience.

And as I said, his post did include some useful information.

However...

Personally, I'm not so sure I would dismiss it easily.

I hope that if you had seen with your own eyes the facts that contradict his
statement, you would.

I'm sure you to though, and If I'd seen
differently I might look for other reasons: local temperature
differences perhaps?

I never said snow ALWAYS sticks to the airframe. I simply said that it can.

Rick has this problem, maybe rooted in all that experience he's supposed to
have, that he thinks he can make a single statement that applies 100% of the
time. Witness his comments about aircraft insurance as well.

I don't care how much experience a person has, it's foolish to make wild
generalizations without having the facts to back them up. Especially when
someone has already said that they have personal experience to the contrary.

Pete