Engine failure on final

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message news:jHlId.4912$hu.3754@fed1read01...
"vincent p. norris" wrote in message ...
I typically pull the throttle all the way back to idle about 1/4 mile
out, Cessna 172.

I suggest that you should not be on final 1/4 mile out. Fly the
pattern so you can make the runway from any point on downwind, base,
or final, if the engine quits.

vince norris

Doesn't 500' AGL at 1/4 mile equal a 3 degree glideslope?
(6076 / 4) / 500 = 3.038

You don't think you'd hit pavement from 1/4 mile out at 500' AGL?

Do you consider 1/4 mile out turning base to final a "bomber pattern."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ



You can make the runway on a 3° glideslope when deadstick?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:40:33 -0700, "Jay Beckman"
wrote:

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
.. .
I typically pull the throttle all the way back to idle about 1/4 mile
out, Cessna 172.

I suggest that you should not be on final 1/4 mile out. Fly the
pattern so you can make the runway from any point on downwind, base,
or final, if the engine quits.

vince norris

Doesn't 500' AGL at 1/4 mile equal a 3 degree glideslope?
(6076 / 4) / 500 = 3.038

Methinks you forgot to apply the appropriate trigonometric function.
What you should have done is: glideslope angle = arctan(rise/run). In
this case that would be: glideslope angle = arctan(500/1500) = 18.4
degrees. Pretty steep. ;-)

Working it the other way, for a 3 degree glideslope, at 500 ft you'd
still be 1.57 nm from the end of the runway. Unless you're flying a
glider, you need power to hold a 3 degree glideslope.

You don't think you'd hit pavement from 1/4 mile out at 500' AGL?

Do you consider 1/4 mile out turning base to final a "bomber pattern."

What I enjoy doing is flying downwind about 3/4 mile offset from the
runway and if "cleared to land" during the downwind, I go to idle
abeam the numbers and fly a circular arc to touchdown. No flaps
(don't have any) in an Extra 300L. Drops like a rock. Holding 90 kts
to the flare retains plenty of energy for the flare. I'd probably do
it differently in a 172. ;-)

Klein

Do you consider 1/4 mile out turning base to final a "bomber pattern."

In the Marines, I spent about two years flying an R5C (what the Air
Force called a C-46). It was the size of WW II heavy bombers. We
routinely flew finals of less than 1/4 mile.

In a Cherokee or C-172, two or three hundred yards are plenty.

vince norris

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:58:29 -0600, David Gunter
wrote:

So what do you do when you are on 1/4-mile final and you spot a coyote
or two playing around in the middle of the runway?

I'd put on power and go around. I didn't say I switched the engine
off, only that I went to idle when abreast the landing spot.

We have some (a few) coyotes in SE New Hampshire. When I first saw
them, on the ice in the moonlight, I thought they were wolves, one
blonde and one dark. Gorgeous animals. Took my breath away.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net

Not to pick nits... but... doesn't an idle engine put out some thrust? I
suspect (please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm full of it... it happens
with surprising regularity) that if you're making any kind of a short field
landing, you're going to be out of glide range when the engine quits. The
best solution is to land at airports with a really nice safety zone before
the runway.

-Rob
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:58:29 -0600, David Gunter
wrote:

So what do you do when you are on 1/4-mile final and you spot a coyote
or two playing around in the middle of the runway?

I'd put on power and go around. I didn't say I switched the engine
off, only that I went to idle when abreast the landing spot.

We have some (a few) coyotes in SE New Hampshire. When I first saw
them, on the ice in the moonlight, I thought they were wolves, one
blonde and one dark. Gorgeous animals. Took my breath away.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Rob Montgomery wrote:
Not to pick nits... but... doesn't an idle engine put out some thrust?

On the ground while taxiing, sure it does, just take your feet off the
brakes and away you go. At flying speed however, it (perhaps surprisingly)
causes drag.

Hilton

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:28:09 -0500, "Rob Montgomery"
wrote:

Not to pick nits... but... doesn't an idle engine put out some thrust?

I asked my friend/CFI about this. He reckoned that it netted out to
about zero, and that I probably wouldn't notice the difference.

The only time the plane ever moved when the engine was at idle was on
glare ice. Then it taxied so fast that the only way I could negotiate
the turns (race-track oval plowed out) was to switch to right magneto,
the one that shows the greater drop.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Yes, that's true, and it's why the Old Timers taught power-off
landings, and it's why I fly them routinely.

(To tell the truth, I also like the feeling of whooshing down without
that engine blatting away. Perhaps I was a glider pilot in another
life.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

Dan, when I was flying those Cubs at your place.. I was taught that in
winter it is best to keep some power up.. letting it idle would cool those
cylinders and the spark could go out.. but a J-3 should never fly a pattern
outside of power off glide anyway. I've seen the spark go out when idling on
the ground in cold weather.

BT

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:02:10 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote:

Dan, when I was flying those Cubs at your place.. I was taught that in
winter it is best to keep some power up.. letting it idle would cool those
cylinders and the spark could go out.. but a J-3 should never fly a pattern
outside of power off glide anyway. I've seen the spark go out when idling on
the ground in cold weather.

When 80 octane became impossible to get, the airport got STCs for the
Cubs and brought in mogas from a supplier in Maine (no MBTE or
alcohol). By coincidence or not, we experienced a rash of engine
quitting in cold weather. Generally of course this was on the ground,
but even that can be awkward if it's at another airport--nobody wants
to be involved with propping a Cub any longer. But it happened to an
instructor while doing stall training with a student, very bad. (He
started the engine again by diving the Cub.)

So the rule came in: we can't rent the planes unless the thermometer
is over 20 degrees. (They also pulled the STCs and placarded the Cubs
for 100LL only. There's one school of thought that holds that this was
less because of engines quitting than because one instructor didn't
like the smell of mogas.)

Anyhow, it's very unlikely that an engine will quit in the pattern,
until you flare. That's my conclusion from that winter's flying. (That
is: quit because it's at idle and not at 1500 rpm.)



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Cub Driver wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:56:22 -0800, Ron Garret

wrote:

If you fly final with some amount of power (which I gather most
people
do -- I always have) that seems to guarantee that if you lose your
engine on final you will land short, and there's pretty much nothing
you
can do about it. Is that true?

Yes, that's true, and it's why the Old Timers taught power-off
landings, and it's why I fly them routinely.

(To tell the truth, I also like the feeling of whooshing down without
that engine blatting away. Perhaps I was a glider pilot in another
life.)

You've got it in one Dan !
Every landing in a glider/sailplane is a forced landing and circuit
planning becomes nearly automatic.
However with all the posters talk of glideslopes and rates of descent
and other esoteric subjects remember there are two laws a pilot has to
follow.
1) Fly the aeroplane
2) For anything else refer to 1
:-)