why do you soar?

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:43:14 +0100, Bill Gribble
wrote:

Lennie the Lurker writes
You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600 per
year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown, $40
for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable.

Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.


Bill,
The way things work in the USA are a lot different from the UK. Many
(most?) clubs don't instruct there - you learn at the local FBO, which
is a commercial operation and will charge around $50 per hour for
glider hire, $40 per hour of instructor time and typically $10 - $12
per thousand feet on tow. Winching is rare across the pond. Mind you,
the clubs, where they exist are pretty reasonable (when I visited
Avenal they wanted $20 per tow and $5 for each glider flight, but in
an older, lower performance club fleet (Schweitzer 2-33, Blanik L-13,
Schweitzer 1-26). Club membership seemed more or less in line with the
UK norm.

Finally, most club and FBO fleets are two seat only, so once you're
solo you really have to stump up for a glider to continue. Gliding
there costs a lot more than it does here.

Looked at in his context, Lennie's costs look to be pretty much in
line with the US norm.

For my part, I'm learning to fly as a member of a local club. I use the
club gliders and the club instructors, all of which come within the
price of my annual membership (£220 pa). Because I took their "Fixed
price to solo" offer (£470 incl annual membership) I don't have to pay
another thing until I either go solo or I need to renew my annual
membership (another £220 next year).

My local club is a bit more expensive than yours, but we have a big
airfield, an all-glass fleet and some nice club single seaters to
support. I too did the fixed price to solo. Its good encouragement to
go fly on a less than optimal day. For the last three years I've been
flying club single seaters as part of a similar scheme (buy a block of
reduced cost air time with associated glider booking rights). For a
variety of reasons I'm planning buy my own glider this winter.

Of course, were I to own my own glider, perhaps the costs would be
higher. Don't know. Haven't bothered to work that out yet. Owning my own
glider, as attractive an ambition as that might be, isn't really
appropriate at the moment.

Agreed. You'll know when its time. As you start to go cross country
you'll find your air time per year rises a lot and the cost of using
club gliders follows. I did about 25 hours total in the season it took
me to solo, but flew about double that in my first solo year, 70 hours
last year and 90 this year.

A very rough calculation indicates that, at somewhere between 70-100
hours flown per year, owning your own glider becomes cheaper than
flying club gliders. This assumes that the private glider is older
glass and includes insurance, running costs and interest on capital
but not depreciation. It also assumes no major repairs or damage. By
older glass I mean something between a Standard Cirrus or Libelle and
an ASW-20. I've used current UK glider prices and interest rates and
my club's booking scheme hire costs.

Of course, if the glider is syndicated between two or three pilots
then the cost per pilot drops, but the glider probably doesn't fly
many more hours during the year.

As an aside to the rest of you, what did I miss here?

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Bill Gribble wrote in message ...


Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.

I'm still totalling things up, but what I got out of it was a minimum
$7000 total loss. However, and I wasn't any different from any of the
other students we had, an average day would be three flights, $40 per
tow, an hours rent for the 2-33, another $40, and an hours
instruction, another $40. Once I was in my 1-26, prices got a lot
cheaper, but I don't think I ever took it on more than one flight per
day. Another problem came when, after a layoff of several weeks,
trying to get back on the schedule was only a matter of six more
weeks. Both instructor and the 2-33 were booked solid that far in
advance. Don't know if that's changed, but not being willing to be
financially strapped all the time, it doesn't matter. The nearest
club, the last time I talked to anyone there, no students unless solo
students. Not that that matters either, I don't like clubs, it's a
blooming hobby, something I do for myself, and if the small clique of
anal masters that always seems to take control of it doesn't like it,
I have "kiss me here" embroidered on the seat of my shorts.

But I find comparing the rewards of music and the appreciation
of a child (or any type of audience, for that matter) to the rewards to
be found "in a cockpit" to be a bit non-sensical.

Maybe, but after my first solo, I didn't have a grin on my face.
After the hug from Melissa, I did. After the first solo, it was only
the realization that I had finally done what I had wanted to do for
some forty years. The comment from Melissa meant much more, because
it wasn't just the social "gladhanding" that I got after the solo.
However, had I continued soaring, I could never have purchased the
Yamaha DGX-500, and my left hand is almost entirely shot, can't do
much on the organ anymore.

Sure. But would you have as much fun rotting your brain in coffee as I
do mine in beer?

Probably more, because in the morning I wouldn't be asking myself how
big of a damn fool did I make of myself the night before. But then, I
always figured that my dad drank enough beer that I don't have to.

in article , Lennie the
Lurker at wrote on 2003/10/14 0:28:

I find that making repair parts for the other retirees, and not having
to charge for it to dump it in my glider is much more rewarding.

So, Lennie, what is it that keeps you here at r.a.s.: you don't seem to
think much of soaring?



Jack

Jack wrote in message ...
in article , Lennie the
Lurker at wrote on 2003/10/14 0:28:

I find that making repair parts for the other retirees, and not having
to charge for it to dump it in my glider is much more rewarding.

So, Lennie, what is it that keeps you here at r.a.s.: you don't seem to
think much of soaring?



Jack

And would that be Jack A., Jack O., or Jack S.?

(JuanM) wrote in message ...
I'm working on a video and a print project on soaring, and would appreciate
receiving your collective input. We all love this special sport, and are
always trying to convey its uniqueness to strangers.

I would appreciate if you can write a SHORT paragraph about why soaring (and
soaring competition if that is what you do) is so special to you. Why do you
do it? What does it mean to you? How important is it in your life? You can
post here or email me at . Let me know if I can quote your name
or if you would rather remain anonymous.

Juan,

The best answer I've come up with to your question (which others have
asked as well) is that I must have been a hawk in a former life.
Kidding aside (though who knows?), ever since I can remember, long
before soaring was a possibility in my mind, I've always marveled at
soaring birds. Whenever I saw them, if possible, I stopped to watch
them. I didn't realize it back then, but I wanted to be up there with
them.

That realization came to me when I finally did learn to soar and
shared thermals with hawks and eagles. (OK, I know there are also a
lot of turkey vultures up there, but "soaring with the vultures" just
doesn't sound right.) I don't fly contests or go for badges, but do it
for the pure enjoyment of seeing the earth, sky, and clouds from a
really very different perspective. Come to think of it, the hawks and
eagles don't fly contests or do badge work either,

Aside from the lack of engine noise, I also prefer soaring to power
flight because you don't have to go anywhere. Power pilots don't just
circle over a mountain, burning 10+ gallons of fuel an hour, going
nowhere. But, if there's lift over that mountain, a glider pilot can
enjoy hanging out there, marveling at the view before moving on to the
next lift.

Martin

Martin Hellman writes
I would appreciate if you can write a SHORT paragraph about why soaring (and
soaring competition if that is what you do) is so special to you. Why do you
do it? What does it mean to you? How important is it in your life? You can
post here or email me at . Let me know if I can quote your name
or if you would rather remain anonymous.

I'm the least qualified to contribute. So far a total of three launches,
perhaps two hours in the air, maybe a little less. But you can quote my
name if you wish, if you want to use anything I have to say in answer to
your question.

Life is a fast, complex, crowded and noisy thing on the ground. You
can't see the wood for the trees, you can't hear yourself think.
Everybody and everything wants something from you. Hanging at the top of
a thermal just below the dewpoint at 4000 feet with nothing but the
whisper of the wind and the cloud dappled sky to embrace you is the
closest sensation to peace, to complete perspective that I've found. The
complexity, the crowds, the noise - all gone. You are simply alive. A
thing of the sky.

Does it need anymore explanation than that?

I've only just started. The dream of doing this solo is still a long,
long way off. I'm naive and a little idealistic. For some reason, it's
taken me thirty years to reach what is only the starting point. But I
can't remember ever not wanting to do this, and have always been baffled
by my earthbound friends that are most comfortable with their feet on
the ground and incredulous that anybody would harbour such a dream and
ambition.

--
Bill Gribble, UK

| I'm the least qualified to contribute. So far a total of three
launches,
| perhaps two hours in the air, maybe a little less. But you can
quote my
| name if you wish, if you want to use anything I have to say in
answer to
| your question.
|
| Life is a fast, complex, crowded and noisy thing on the ground.
You
| can't see the wood for the trees, you can't hear yourself think.
| Everybody and everything wants something from you. Hanging at the
top of
| a thermal just below the dewpoint at 4000 feet with nothing but
the
| whisper of the wind and the cloud dappled sky to embrace you is
the
| closest sensation to peace, to complete perspective that I've
found. The
| complexity, the crowds, the noise - all gone. You are simply
alive. A
| thing of the sky.
|
| Does it need anymore explanation than that?
|
| I've only just started. The dream of doing this solo is still a
long,
| long way off. I'm naive and a little idealistic. For some reason,
it's
| taken me thirty years to reach what is only the starting point.
But I
| can't remember ever not wanting to do this, and have always been
baffled
| by my earthbound friends that are most comfortable with their feet
on
| the ground and incredulous that anybody would harbour such a dream
and
| ambition.
|
| --
| Bill Gribble, UK

Beautifully put, Bill . .

Lots of good posts that cover some of the reasons that I soar.

One reason that jumps to mind in particular is: Soaring weeds out the
"Perception is reality" phonies and flakes pretty darned quick.

Oh, and I do mean soaring as in the act of actual flying gliders as
opposed to discussing flying gliders on RAS or any other venue.

(Martin Hellman) wrote in message . com...

Aside from the lack of engine noise, I also prefer soaring to power
flight because you don't have to go anywhere. Power pilots don't just
circle over a mountain, burning 10+ gallons of fuel an hour, going
nowhere. But, if there's lift over that mountain, a glider pilot can
enjoy hanging out there, marveling at the view before moving on to the
next lift.

Not in my case. Being only a "renter" power pilot, most of my flights
have *not* been "to" a specific destination, but have been "sight
seeing".

I *have* circled over my house / neighborhood, and golf courses are
another favorite g. Niagara Falls was another site to see, and
circling over my cousin's cottage was another. (Would have landed ....
if I'd been in a floatplane ! g)

Mike

(JuanM) wrote in message ...
I'm working on a video and a print project on soaring, and would appreciate
receiving your collective input. We all love this special sport, and are
always trying to convey its uniqueness to strangers.

I would appreciate if you can write a SHORT paragraph about why soaring (and
soaring competition if that is what you do) is so special to you. Why do you
do it? What does it mean to you? How important is it in your life? You can
post here or email me at . Let me know if I can quote your name
or if you would rather remain anonymous.

I will be posting news on the video project here soon.

Thank you very much!

Juan Mandelbaum
"Z8"

It's the next-best thing to sex...
Although a good flight should last a bit longer, and when your done
you can shove your glider into a metal box and forget about it until
you're ready to take it out and use it again.
-Asbestos