Sikorsky To Acquire Schweizer Aircraft

The beauty of the 2-33 in my humble opinion, is that it gets people into the
air cheaply and quickly...is it the best? Well...at getting people into the
air cheaply and quickly AND safely...yeah I'd have to say it is. Someone
else mentioned "leagues" of soaring pilots in the US learning to fly in
2-33's and it probably is the truth. If they were available today new for a
reasonable cost, I'm sure clubs and schools would buy them. Cheap to fly,
cheap to insure, cheap to maintain...

I think what we sometimes forget, is that real soaring is learned almost by
ourselves, over time and through trial and error.Alone in the cockpit, by
trying things, not simply by just being taken out for a ride and being shown
how to soar...we learn in little increments, step at a time, learn a skill,
master it and learn a new one. We compare our performance to others in our
little brotherhood and emulate those better than us in many cases. The 2-33
allows us to get to the point where we can start to learn. The day I was
handed my first pilot certificate, Mr. Roy Beech handed it to me and said
"Now Steve...never stop learning...that's all this really is, a license to
learn"

In short, I think people should quit picking on the 2-33 and recognize that
it is an excellent entry level trainer, that offers its students the ability
to fly it from almost the first minute they touch the stick...and it begins
teaching us almost as quickly, what it wants or needs...I learned in one and
I think if my sons learn to fly, they'll learn in one...and from the first
ride in that grungy old 2-33 I have loved soaring. For me it has never
stopped and if I owe that to the venerable 2-33 then for me...that's enough.

For all it's faults as a sailplane, I have to say, to build a better intial
trainer, that is still being used daily, some 50 years after its inception,
is certainly worth more respect than that which some of the outspoken pilots
on here seem to grant.

It may not have taught me everything I needed to know about soaring, but it
sure taught me to love it...

Steve

When you find a better trainer than the 2-33 for comparable money, let
everybody know.

Generally speaking you get what you pay for. Hence, the low price for 2-33s

If there was a better alternative, people who have been in the business for
decades and know the ropes, would be using it instead of the 2-33.

They are, everywhere but in one of the world's most advanced country, the USA.


Do you feel the 2-33 has caused your progress in soaring to be less than it
would have been if you had learned in something else,...

As a CFIG for over 30 years and with time in almost every model of trainer
produced in that time span, I have to answer "yes" to this question. The 2-33s
not only retards the individual progress but also the progress of the sport in
general.

Robert Mudd

Well now,
It seems to me that if you are truly an excellent instuctor, it shouldn't
make a lot of difference what you're flying to teach in.
That is, if you are teaching people to fly rather than just operate a
perticular kind of aircraft. There is something to learn from every flight
no matter what it is in. I am not comfortable in the back seat of a 2-33
anymore and I hven't taught in many years, but I admire the 2-33 greatly for
what it is and what it does. I've not done any x-c in one but I know people
who have and it's true that they are a pain to de rig in an off field
landing but so what. They do the job they were designed for admirably IMHO.
As for retarding the sport, how many glider pilots would there be now if it
weren't for the ready availibility of a functional 2-33? We have two of them
in our club and they are rarely unflyable: our Twin Astir has been down for
maintenance over six months in the preceding year, and it's not a delicate
machine.
"Course I'm not selling anything and I don't have the opinion that only a
european glider is worthy of my effort to fly it.
Cheers!

"Robertmudd1u" wrote in message
...
When you find a better trainer than the 2-33 for comparable money, let
everybody know.

Generally speaking you get what you pay for. Hence, the low price for
2-33s

If there was a better alternative, people who have been in the business
for
decades and know the ropes, would be using it instead of the 2-33.

They are, everywhere but in one of the world's most advanced country, the
USA.


Do you feel the 2-33 has caused your progress in soaring to be less than
it
would have been if you had learned in something else,...

As a CFIG for over 30 years and with time in almost every model of trainer
produced in that time span, I have to answer "yes" to this question. The
2-33s
not only retards the individual progress but also the progress of the
sport in
general.

Robert Mudd

Pete Reinhart wrote:
Well now,
It seems to me that if you are truly an excellent instuctor, it shouldn't
make a lot of difference what you're flying to teach in.

If you were a truly excellent instructor, you would realize how much the
trainer affects what you can teach. The other problem, of course, is
most of us aren't truly excellent instructors, just as most of us aren't
truly excellent pilots. So, we have things like automatically connecting
controls to make it easier for us to do the right thing. I've flown in
2-33s and instructed in Blaniks, and I know a 2-33 would make it much
harder for me to prepare a student for the glider I hope he/she will
purchase for post-licence flying. I don't care how good you are as an
instructor, you are still limited by the student's ablity to learn (in
general) and what you can demonstrate in particular (glider limitations).

That is, if you are teaching people to fly rather than just operate a
perticular kind of aircraft. There is something to learn from every flight
no matter what it is in. I am not comfortable in the back seat of a 2-33
anymore and I hven't taught in many years, but I admire the 2-33 greatly for
what it is and what it does. I've not done any x-c in one but I know people
who have and it's true that they are a pain to de rig in an off field
landing but so what.

"So what" is big problem. A hard to derig and retrieve glider really
discourages a student from even contemplating cross-country unless he
can be sure of landing at airports for an aero retrieve, and the low
performance means it is impractical to stay within reach of airports.
Practically speaking, it means most students won't take a 2-33 away from
the home airport.

They do the job they were designed for admirably IMHO.

I agree, but the job requirements have changed in the 40 years since
they were designed. It is not a criticism of the Schwiezers to say their
40 year old design is no longer the best choice!

As for retarding the sport, how many glider pilots would there be now if it
weren't for the ready availibility of a functional 2-33? We have two of them
in our club and they are rarely unflyable: our Twin Astir has been down for
maintenance over six months in the preceding year, and it's not a delicate
machine.
"Course I'm not selling anything and I don't have the opinion that only a
european glider is worthy of my effort to fly it.

I don't have anything to sell and I don't have the opinion that only a
European glider is worthy of my effort to fly it, but I still echo
Robert's comments. Please stick with responding to what a person says
instead of disparaging motives you can only speculate about.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Pete Reinhart" wrote in message ...
Well now,
It seems to me that if you are truly an excellent instuctor, it shouldn't
make a lot of difference what you're flying to teach in.

I started my flight training in the T21 and Capstan but soloed in a
2-33. As I student I did not think that the 2-33 held me back in any
way. I was soon able to progress via the 1-26 to flying my gold and 2
diamonds in a Std Jantar.

As an instructor I found the 2-33 to be limiting. Perhaps its most
serious problem is the lack of visibility from the rear seat which
makes it unsafe to thermal with other gliders unless the front seat
pilot is experienced enough to maintain separation.

I normally leave a thermal if I see a 2-33 about to join. Earlier
this year I stayed and was nearly run down.

Andy

Robertmudd1u wrote:

Do you feel the 2-33 has caused your progress in soaring to be less than it
would have been if you had learned in something else,...

As a CFIG for over 30 years and with time in almost every model of trainer
produced in that time span, I have to answer "yes" to this question. The 2-33s
not only retards the individual progress but also the progress of the sport in
general.

In my case, not so. If it weren't for the 2 x 2-33s and the 1-26,
my club wouldn't have had money to buy 5 seats in other gliders.

Without the five seats, and the business they give him, the
tow pilot would have moved away a long time ago to a golfing
resort.

And then, no tows for the rest of the glass ships...

More tows always = better. I seldom fly the 2-33 (I prefer
the Blanik because I don't generally do primary
training). But I'm very happy those 5 seats fly all the time
because it keeps our tuggie happy, and therefore our
tow rates down.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

I recall gazing at a particularly cherry looking 2-33
at Price, Utah a few years ago..completely reskinned
and new upholstery and paint. Something about the
N-number seemed familiar, I checked my log-book...I
had soloed in it as a 14 year old in 1968 at the old
Sky Sailing in Fremont, Ca.

I suspect this thread may continue to re-occur for
another 30 years, for better or worse. Because I don't
thing you can wear the things out, and their replacements
sure are not cheap.

The best arguments for the 2-33 are its ruggedness,
low price, and quick time to solo. It most likely
holds people back who don't move on to something else
right away. That is not a problem if the club/fbo
has the proper gliders to move on to quickly.

We must now pose the question 'Can a club or FBO afford
such a fleet?' That depends on a lot of variables,
but it is certainly imaginable. Nowadays, the 2-33
serves somewhat the same function as a flight simulator;
it can be the basis of some cheap/quick initial learning.


There are some people who don't really aspire to X/C
flying or who can't afford either the time or the money
to do anything else than an occasional flight - perhaps
once a month for the season. These particular people
are not held back by the
2-33; instead of limiting them, it gives them a limited
opportunity they might not have otherwise. Don't forget
that the infrequent flyer will probably be safer in
the 2-33 than in something slicker.




At 22:18 27 August 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
Robertmudd1u wrote:

Do you feel the 2-33 has caused your progress in soaring
to be less than it
would have been if you had learned in something else,...

As a CFIG for over 30 years and with time in almost
every model of trainer
produced in that time span, I have to answer 'yes'
to this question. The 2-33s
not only retards the individual progress but also the
progress of the sport in
general.

In my case, not so. If it weren't for the 2 x 2-33s
and the 1-26,
my club wouldn't have had money to buy 5 seats in other
gliders.

Without the five seats, and the business they give
him, the
tow pilot would have moved away a long time ago to
a golfing
resort.

And then, no tows for the rest of the glass ships...

More tows always = better. I seldom fly the 2-33 (I
prefer
the Blanik because I don't generally do primary
training). But I'm very happy those 5 seats fly all
the time
because it keeps our tuggie happy, and therefore our
tow rates down.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Nyal Williams wrote in message ...

(snip) Nowadays, the 2-33 serves somewhat the same function as a
flight simulator; it can be the basis of some cheap/quick initial
learning.

That's it! That explains everything! That's why no one ever gets
hurt in a 2-33 - THEY AREN'T REALLY FLYING! It's just a simulator!
We should paint them all blue and put the instructor's seat on the
outside, next to the student.

I love it!

Kirk

Kirk Stant wrote:

That's it! That explains everything! That's why no one ever gets
hurt in a 2-33 - THEY AREN'T REALLY FLYING! It's just a simulator!
We should paint them all blue and put the instructor's seat on the
outside, next to the student.

On super windy days, one of the great things about the 2-33 is you
can get in it and stay on the ground and "fly" it just like Kirk says.
It's a real blast for early students...

What other aircraft have ONE wheel, so you can do this?
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA