Considerations for joining flying club

In article ne.com, Andrew
Gideon wrote:
Michael wrote:

The result is that when you want
to do something fun and challenging, you find it's against club rules.

Can you provide an example of something fun and challenging that is against
some club's rule? That seems rather against the idea of a club (as opposed
to an FBO).

I think it pretty much depends on the club. The last one I was in (Bay
Area Aero Club in Houston) had much less restrictive rules than a
typical FBO. For airfields, it just had to be marked on a chart as an
airfield - it was up to the PIC to determine whether it was safe to take
the plane there. Currency requirements were slightly stricter (due to
insurance) than what was set in the FARs.

Funnily enough, we had a much LOWER accident rate than all the nearby
FBOs.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Andrew Gideon wrote
Can you provide an example of something fun and challenging that is against
some club's rule? That seems rather against the idea of a club (as opposed
to an FBO).

I was only a member of a glider (as opposed to power) club, but maybe
this will help.

We had several aerobatic gliders. Aerobatics weren't actually
prohibited in club gliders, but you needed to get a checkout from the
designated aerobatic instructor. Except there wasn't one. We had
plenty of instructors who were aerobatic-capable, but the club
wouldn't designate any of them. If you wanted to do acro, you bought
your own glider and figured it out on your own.

We had a couple of gliders that were reasonably capable of
cross-country flight (yes, gliders do this). It wasn't actually
forbidden to go XC, but there were certain requirements you had to
meet - and nobody had managed to meet them in years. If you wanted to
go XC, you bought your own glider and figured it out on your own.

We had a rule about landing short of a line someone marked on the
field. How this amateur-defined displaced threshold was actually
chosen was never adequately explained, but it required that I throw
away hundreds of feet of usable runway and made it impossible to
practice steep approaches over an obstacle. If you landed short of
the line, you had to fly with an instructor. I think that eventually
went away.

For a while, if you were a private pilot you couldn't fly from the
back seat. Too dangerous (tell that to all the people who soloed in
Cubs). You had to get your commercial. The local DE (also a club
member) got ****ed about this, and started requiring that the
commercial be flown from the back seat. In a glider, it's really the
way to go anyway if you want to give someone a good ride. So the club
changed a little - if you wanted to fly from the back seat as a
private pilot you needed a separate back seat checkout for every make
and model, renewed every year.

We bought a new glider that is used, worldwide, as an early solo
glider (Blanik L-33). The insurance company was fine with anyone
flying it with a CFI checkout, but the club decided you had to have 40
hours in gliders to fly it. There was no reduction in premium for
this.

Those are my personal experiences. I eventually left the club - not
only for those reasons (I did eventually buy my own glider and go XC,
and I wound up doing acro in my girlfriend's 'Duster) but because when
a club makes rules this way, it's a sign that other things are wrong.
And they were.

Now let's talk about some other clubs.

Not too long ago, we had someone posting here about a club that had a
10 kt Xwind limit. Amazingly, some people were trying to justify that
as a reasonable rule.

I know a club that prohibits retracts on grass. Despite what the
inexperienced among you might think, that is NOT reasonable. I land a
Twin Comanche on grass routinely. The key is being able to
competently evaluate a grass surface for suitability.

I know another that requires 3000 ft of runway for all planes. Again
- this is NOT reasonable. I've comfortably landed a twin on less.

I know a club that prohibits night flight without an instrument
rating. I had well over 100 hours at night before I got an instrument
rating.

Of course I know FBO's that do this too. Here's the difference - with
an FBO, you have no real investment. With a club, you do - so it
makes sense to do more homework in advance.

Michael

(Michael) wrote in
om:


Now let's talk about some other clubs.


I know another that requires 3000 ft of runway for all planes. Again
- this is NOT reasonable. I've comfortably landed a twin on less.



Michael


The nearest airport to where I live has a paved runway 2,443' long. There
are several clubs at this airport. A few years ago, I was considering
joining one of these clubs and went around to them to review their
membership requirements and rules. Just about all of them had a rule that
members were only allowed to land at paved runways a minimum of 3,000'
long.

I guess I should have asked where members were supposed to return the
aircraft when done flying.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
The nearest airport to where I live has a paved runway 2,443' long. There
are several clubs at this airport. A few years ago, I was considering
joining one of these clubs and went around to them to review their
membership requirements and rules. Just about all of them had a rule that
members were only allowed to land at paved runways a minimum of 3,000'
long.

Blimey. I had to land on one that was only 2,000 feet long on my qualifying
cross-country (a =150nm solo XC exercise that students undertake at around
35 hours into the course, involving landing at a total of three airfields
including your own). It was dead easy, too.

At my home airfield, the runway is about 6,000 feet long, but it's rare that
you use more than the first 1500 or so in our club PA-28 unless you do it
without flaps or you're hurtling in too fast. Though a 737 I was on as a
passenger nearly overshot once :-)

D

Thanks to everybody who has chimed in on this so far - it's been interesting
and educational!

"Marty Ross" wrote in message
k.net...
I'm considering joining a flying club this week. This one's the closest
club to where I live, the members, the planes, and the online scheduling
system seem to be great, and I think I'm ready to make the commitment
(e.g.,
buy a share in the fleet).

Since I've never joined a club before (have always rented from the FBO
where
I trained), I wanted to solicit tips or important questions to ask before
paying the application fee (e.g. based on hindsight of those now in
clubs)??

Thanks for any/all useful advice!

Also, links to "backgrounder" articles about flying clubs, their typical
organizational and accounting structure or the like will also be
appreciated...

Marty Ross wrote:
I'm considering joining a flying club this week. This one's the closest
club to where I live, the members, the planes, and the online scheduling
system seem to be great, and I think I'm ready to make the commitment (e.g.,
buy a share in the fleet).

Enjoyed reading all the responses to this, and I think mostly they are on the mark.

I'd add that based on my experience in two different clubs, the scheduling rules
about number of weekend overnights, etc. are pretty restrictive on the books,
but the actual enforcement of those rules is flexible. I've just pointed out
that I wanted to schedule a plane at a time that was beyond my quota, and asked
for special permission. It's never been refused. It seems the rules are there to
protect the club if they want to enforce them, but in individual cases they will
bend the rules in the best interest of all concerned.

Dave

In a previous article, Dave Butler said:
for special permission. It's never been refused. It seems the rules are
there to protect the club if they want to enforce them, but in individual
cases they will bend the rules in the best interest of all concerned.

In some cases, these sorts of restrictions were designed to "get" one
egregious offender to stop being an asshole. For instance, our club had a
guy who used to book our Lance, our biggest and most capable cross country
plane, for two week chunks, and then not fly at all or only fly it for one
day out of that whole chunk. So we put in a rule that if, half a hour
after the booking started that if the plane was still on the field,
somebody else could cancel your booking and take it himself if they made a
reasonable attempt to contact the person with the booking. So this guy
continued to make these two week bookings, but a few hours before the
booking was to start, he'd cancel the first day of it only. Then the next
day he'd cancel the next day. And so on until the entire two weeks had
gone by, and he hadn't flown it anywhere but he'd effectively prevented
anybody else from using it for more than day trips. So we contemplated
making a new rule to try and prevent that, but instead we finally wised up
and just kicked the ******* out of the club. We still have planes booked
that don't fly, but far less often.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I don't have a sense of humour, merely an over-exaggerated sense
of revenge.
-- Stephen Harris

I'm considering joining a flying club this week. This one's the closest
club to where I live, the members, the planes, and the online scheduling
system seem to be great, and I think I'm ready to make the commitment (e.g.,
buy a share in the fleet).

Since I've never joined a club before (have always rented from the FBO where
I trained), I wanted to solicit tips or important questions to ask before
paying the application fee (e.g. based on hindsight of those now in clubs)??

I've been a member of the same club since 1976. The club has been in operation
since 1961. KalAire Flying Club in AZO.

First of all - define "club". Is this a company or individual who owns an/some
aircraft and sells you (membership fee) the right to fly his aircraft or is
this a partnership where you are actually purchasing a share of the aircraft.
Ours is the latter and I wouldn't, personally, join the former.

Secondly, if you are buying a share, is it a share of a corporation or a share
of the aircraft? Ours is a not for profit corporation set up for the purpose
of owning (an) aircraft available for use by its shareholders.

Thirdly, how is the price you pay determined and who sets the price you get
when you depart. Ours is a set share price, reviewed annually, that incoming
members pay. The transaction is handled by the club. The incoming shareholder
who is buying your share pays the set price and you are reimbursed the set
price less any amount owed to the club.

We charge $50/ mo and $54/ wet for our Archer. The hourly rate is tied to the
price of fuel at our FBO. When fuel goes up .10 the rate goes up a buck and
vice versa.

The monthly fee goes for hangar rent, fixed costs, and regular maintenance.
Part of the hourly rate goes to an engine overhaul/replacement fund. We all
expect to pay an assessment for the actual overhaul cost above the fund
balance.

Some of our rules - we only have a few.

You must be a current private pilot to join.

You must be signed off with an instructor designated by the club (2 of our
members are instructors).

You must pay your bills on time or your aircraft use privileges are suspended.

You may only reserve the plane for 2 sign ups in the future. We use
AircraftClubs.com

If you reserve for longer than a week, you must have board approval (3 board
members elected once a year. If you reserve for two weeks or more you must
have approval of a majority of the members.

If you wreck the plane you pay the deductible.

Keep the airplane clean and tidy as if it was your own (it is).

There are other rules but these are the basics. Our by-laws are 7 or 8 pages.
We don't have any of the nit picky stuff I've seen in some of the other
postings like no grass strips etc. We keep it pretty basic, we have a great
aircraft we keep well and fly well. More than half our members are instrument
rated. One is a former DE, One is a 747 pilot.

Like I said - I've been a member since '76. It works great for me. I fly
probably 50 hours a year probably 70/30 business/pleasure.

Drew
N679HC
AZO

In a previous article, (Defly) said:
First of all - define "club". Is this a company or individual who owns an/some
aircraft and sells you (membership fee) the right to fly his aircraft or is
this a partnership where you are actually purchasing a share of the aircraft.
Ours is the latter and I wouldn't, personally, join the former.

Why not? Our club operates that way - it's a limited liability company,
but you become a stockholder in the company (but not with a share of the
planes) for your $795 non-refundable initiation fee. The club bylaws
specify that if the company is dissolved, the money from selling the
assets goes to charity, not to the members. Unlike the local share club,
we have never had an assessment on our members in our 48 years of
operation - all maintenance expenses and capital upgrades are financed
through the monthly fees. We've also never made a member pay the
deductable for an insurance claim, even if it was their fault. (Only one
flying accident in that time - about 25 years ago a guy flipped a Cessna
on landing about 2000 miles from home. The club sold the plane "as is" to
a local dealer and bought a local replacement.)

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began
to suspect 'Hungry' ..."
-- Gary Larson, "The Far Side"

While we on this subject, Anyone know of a club in the Las Vegas area?

--
Rich Raine

remove xxxx for email
www.eRaine.com


"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, (Defly) said:
First of all - define "club". Is this a company or individual who owns
an/some
aircraft and sells you (membership fee) the right to fly his aircraft or
is
this a partnership where you are actually purchasing a share of the
aircraft.
Ours is the latter and I wouldn't, personally, join the former.

Why not? Our club operates that way - it's a limited liability company,
but you become a stockholder in the company (but not with a share of the
planes) for your $795 non-refundable initiation fee. The club bylaws
specify that if the company is dissolved, the money from selling the
assets goes to charity, not to the members. Unlike the local share club,
we have never had an assessment on our members in our 48 years of
operation - all maintenance expenses and capital upgrades are financed
through the monthly fees. We've also never made a member pay the
deductable for an insurance claim, even if it was their fault. (Only one
flying accident in that time - about 25 years ago a guy flipped a Cessna
on landing about 2000 miles from home. The club sold the plane "as is" to
a local dealer and bought a local replacement.)

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began
to suspect 'Hungry' ..."
-- Gary Larson, "The Far Side"