angle points in victor airways

In article ,
"John R. Copeland" wrote:

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Roy Smith wrote:

BTW, it's questions like this that make me really love the CNX-80 I fly
with. You don't have to put in the intermediate fixes. You just tell
it what airway you're on, and it digs all the fixes out of the database
for you.

Is there any disadvantage to this?

I'd an email dialog with a Garmin representative recently. One of the
questions I asked was whether they'd plans to put airways (and airway route
entry) into their 430s at any point. His answer was that this was being
considered, but that they were concerned at making the UI more difficult.

I cannot imagine how this feature would make it more difficult, but I've
never tried this. You obviously have. So...is there any complexity
increase to this?

- Andrew


I shouldn't answer for Roy, but it's very easy in the CNX80/GNS480.
You can try for yourself, if you wish, by downloading and running the
CNX80 simulator for Windows, from Garmin:
http://www.garmin.com/software/simulators/CNX80sim.zip

When you insert any waypoint (or VOR) into a flight plan you are building,
and then indicate you wish to insert an airway from there,
you get to select from a list of all airways using that waypoint.
After you choose your airway, you get to pick your exit point
from an alphabetized list of all waypoints (and VORs) in that airway.
The CNX80/GNS480 also shows you a maplike diagram of the airway,
which is helpful in making your choice.

Roy, did I leave out any important thing?
---JRC---

Nope, that's pretty much it. Sometimes I wish the list of waypoints
would come up in geographical order instead of alphabetical, but I've
gotten used to it the way it is. And, the more I think about it, the
more I realize geographical order has it's own set of problems.

In article ne.com,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

BTW, it's questions like this that make me really love the CNX-80 I fly
with. You don't have to put in the intermediate fixes. You just tell
it what airway you're on, and it digs all the fixes out of the database
for you.

Is there any disadvantage to this?

I'd an email dialog with a Garmin representative recently. One of the
questions I asked was whether they'd plans to put airways (and airway route
entry) into their 430s at any point. His answer was that this was being
considered, but that they were concerned at making the UI more difficult.

I cannot imagine how this feature would make it more difficult, but I've
never tried this. You obviously have. So...is there any complexity
increase to this?

- Andrew

I've only used a 430 a few times, and that was several years ago, so I'm
not in a good position to make a comparative judgement of the two UI's.

There is no doubt that there is a long learning curve to the CNX-80, but
of all the bits of functionality it's got, I think the idea of entering
a flight plan using airways and fixes, just like it's written down on
paper, is one of the shining examples of good UI design. It really is
easy to do, mostly because the box prompts you every step along the way.

One level of complexity that does get added is the idea of "expanded"
vs. (for lack of a better word) "compressed" flight plans. If I enter
"CMK v3 HFD" as my flight plan, initially I only see those elements. To
see the intermediate intersections, I need to hit the XPND (Expand)
button. And since XPND is a soft key, I need to get into the right mode
for the button to be active. Of course, the FPL (Flight Plan) button is
a soft key too, so I may need to hit FN (Function) a couple of times to
scroll around to where I can hit FPL.

But, I think the basic problem there is not that you enter flight plans
using airways, but that the function tree is a little too deep, and a
little too modal. But, a wider, shallower function tree means more
hard-labeled buttons, and that takes panel real-estate.

A good example of the CNX-80 modal design is the very first time I ever
used one. I was out with another club instructor, and he had only used
the box a few times (the blind teaching the blind). We almost didn't
get out of the ramp. We went to call ground for taxi clearance and
heard nothing. After a few attempts, we switched to the radio and heard
ground calling us, asking if we heard them. Turns out the COM volume
was turned all the way down on the CNX-80. The 430 has two volume
knobs, one for COM, one for NAV (IIRC). The CNX-80 has a single volume
knob, which adjusts the COM or NAV volume, depending on which mode
you're in at the time. It's also a blind knob; there's no visual
indication where it's set to. When you twiddle it, a volume display
pops up on the screen, and goes away when you stop twiddling.

BTW, you can download the manual (PDF) and a full simulator for the
CNX-80 from the Garmin web site. Load up the sim and play with it.
That's probably a better way to get a feel for how the UI works than
anything I could write.

If you are using a handheld GPS, I sell software that can do that for
you. If you plan your route along an airway, it only includes fixes
at the doglegs in the route description. You can download a freeware
version that doesn't include GPS support from my site at
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/airplan.htm to try out the planner
functions.

Dean Wilkinson

(John Hamilton) wrote in message . com...
If I am navigating along a Victor Airway, and want to program it into
my GPS, how can I tell if there is an angle (i.e. change in direction)
at an intersection? I know that some intersections are there just
because of changes in MOA, MOCA, etc, but definitely some are there
because the airways "bends". For example, I was flying last night from
New haven to Pittsburgh (yes, in the middle of the rain from Joanne)
along V162. Just east of Harrisburg is BOBSS, where V162 joins V12,
and turns due west.

When I was in training for my instrument rating, my CFII would tell me
to program in every intersection along the route, but that could be
dozens. I can't tell from the legend on the IFR chart the answer to
this.

File the airway route with DUATS, and look at the log it generates.
It will fill in all the waypoints, and you can tell if there is a bend by
whether the heading changes.

"Dean Wilkinson" wrote in message
m...
If you are using a handheld GPS, I sell software that can do that for
you. If you plan your route along an airway, it only includes fixes
at the doglegs in the route description. You can download a freeware
version that doesn't include GPS support from my site at
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/airplan.htm to try out the planner
functions.

Dean Wilkinson

(John Hamilton) wrote in message
. com...
If I am navigating along a Victor Airway, and want to program it into
my GPS, how can I tell if there is an angle (i.e. change in direction)
at an intersection? I know that some intersections are there just
because of changes in MOA, MOCA, etc, but definitely some are there
because the airways "bends". For example, I was flying last night from
New haven to Pittsburgh (yes, in the middle of the rain from Joanne)
along V162. Just east of Harrisburg is BOBSS, where V162 joins V12,
and turns due west.

When I was in training for my instrument rating, my CFII would tell me
to program in every intersection along the route, but that could be
dozens. I can't tell from the legend on the IFR chart the answer to
this.