Primary training in a Hi Perf complex acft

"Kingfish" wrote in message
ups.com...
Total stream-of-consciousness post here...

Anbody learn to fly in a high performance complex aircraft? Bonanza,
Saratoga, 182RG and the like? I know it's possible, just wonder how
much longer it'd take for a student to master something with
significant power and prop & gear controls. (I did all my instructing
in 172s and PA28s)
I watched that goofy Segal movie Executive Decision the other day
where Kurt Russell was a student pilot flying a Bo, and later used his
stellar(?) flying skills to plant a 747 at a GA airport. It got me
thinking about ab initio folks learning in Cirruses (Cirri?)
Obviously with no prop or gear control it's a simpler aircraft to fly
but the performance is equal to or better than a A36.

Lufthansa has (had?) an ab-initio training facility in Goodyear, AZ using
A-36 Bonanzas. I knew a fellow that went out and bought an old Johnson bar
Mooney. He got with an instructor and soloed in a Cessna 152 then finished
his training in his Mooney.

Allen

Kingfish writes:

I watched that goofy Segal movie Executive Decision the other day
where Kurt Russell was a student pilot flying a Bo, and later used his
stellar(?) flying skills to plant a 747 at a GA airport. It got me
thinking about ab initio folks learning in Cirruses (Cirri?)
Obviously with no prop or gear control it's a simpler aircraft to fly
but the performance is equal to or better than a A36.

The most unrealistic part about movies in which inexperienced pilots (or
non-pilots) fly 747s is that a 747 would most likely be flown by computer in
real life. The "pilot" would never have to worry about handling the controls
because he wouldn't have to touch them. The automation on a large airliner is
quite capable of flying to any destination and (usually) autolanding on any
decent runway with an ILS localizer and glide path.

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On Mar 23, 11:14 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Kingfish writes:
I watched that goofy Segal movie Executive Decision the other day
where Kurt Russell was a student pilot flying a Bo, and later used his
stellar(?) flying skills to plant a 747 at a GA airport. It got me
thinking about ab initio folks learning in Cirruses (Cirri?)
Obviously with no prop or gear control it's a simpler aircraft to fly
but the performance is equal to or better than a A36.

The most unrealistic part about movies in which inexperienced pilots (or
non-pilots) fly 747s is that a 747 would most likely be flown by computer in
real life. The "pilot" would never have to worry about handling the controls
because he wouldn't have to touch them. The automation on a large airliner is
quite capable of flying to any destination and (usually) autolanding on any
decent runway with an ILS localizer and glide path.

What?? I've never flown a 747 but I teach TAA (technically advanced
aircraft). It is **WAY** more difficult to fly the plane on automation
than to just hand fly it. The biggest problem we have is pilots
shutting off the system and just hand flying all the time. If I found
myself in the cockpit of a 747 I certainly wouldn't try to learn all
the automation in 5 minutes, I'd probably shut most of it off (maybe
just use heading and altitude hold).

-Robert, CFII

Robert M. Gary writes:

What?? I've never flown a 747 but I teach TAA (technically advanced
aircraft). It is **WAY** more difficult to fly the plane on automation
than to just hand fly it.

No, it is not. It's pushing buttons and turning dials; that's it.

Flying the aircraft (or any aircraft) by hand is an acquired skill, like
riding a motorcycle, skiing, or painting. But running the automated systems
is just a series of procedures. Once you have the procedures memorized,
there's not much to it.

This is why the actual skill requiremens for airline pilots are diminishing.
FBW systems that try to second-guess the pilot and restrict his actions even
when he is flying by hand reduce the required skill even further. The
unstated objective is to make it possible for relatively unskilled technicians
to fly planes safely. One day that goal will probably be achieved; we are far
from it today, but far closer to it than we were even a few decades ago.

The biggest problem we have is pilots
shutting off the system and just hand flying all the time. If I found
myself in the cockpit of a 747 I certainly wouldn't try to learn all
the automation in 5 minutes, I'd probably shut most of it off (maybe
just use heading and altitude hold).

That might be your fatal mistake. It's a lot easier to follow simple
instructions over the radio and set the automation to fly to your destination
and land than it is to try to learn to hand-fly the aircraft in the heat of
the moment. It's not a Cessna, and it's not close enough to one to permit a
smooth transition in ten minutes under extreme duress.

This is one reason why I think a small-aircraft pilot might not be the best
choice as an emergency pilot for a large airliner. He would be too tempted to
try to fly the plane by hand, and he'd end up impacting a mountainside at high
speed, simply because flying by hand is the _last_ thing he should be doing in
that aircraft.

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On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
What?? I've never flown a 747 but I teach TAA (technically advanced
aircraft). It is **WAY** more difficult to fly the plane on automation
than to just hand fly it.

No, it is not. It's pushing buttons and turning dials; that's it.

No, its much more complicated than pushing buttons.

Robert M. Gary writes:

On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
What?? I've never flown a 747 but I teach TAA (technically advanced
aircraft). It is **WAY** more difficult to fly the plane on automation
than to just hand fly it.

No, it is not. It's pushing buttons and turning dials; that's it.

No, its much more complicated than pushing buttons.


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Robert M. Gary writes:

No, its much more complicated than pushing buttons.

What are the complicated parts?

--
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On Mar 23, 11:11 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
What?? I've never flown a 747 but I teach TAA (technically advanced
aircraft). It is **WAY** more difficult to fly the plane on automation
than to just hand fly it.

No, it is not. It's pushing buttons and turning dials; that's it.

Flying the aircraft (or any aircraft) by hand is an acquired skill, like
riding a motorcycle, skiing, or painting. But running the automated systems
is just a series of procedures. Once you have the procedures memorized,
there's not much to it.

This is why the actual skill requiremens for airline pilots are diminishing.
FBW systems that try to second-guess the pilot and restrict his actions even
when he is flying by hand reduce the required skill even further. The
unstated objective is to make it possible for relatively unskilled technicians
to fly planes safely. One day that goal will probably be achieved; we are far
from it today, but far closer to it than we were even a few decades ago.

The biggest problem we have is pilots
shutting off the system and just hand flying all the time. If I found
myself in the cockpit of a 747 I certainly wouldn't try to learn all
the automation in 5 minutes, I'd probably shut most of it off (maybe
just use heading and altitude hold).

That might be your fatal mistake. It's a lot easier to follow simple
instructions over the radio and set the automation to fly to your destination
and land than it is to try to learn to hand-fly the aircraft in the heat of
the moment. It's not a Cessna, and it's not close enough to one to permit a
smooth transition in ten minutes under extreme duress.

This is one reason why I think a small-aircraft pilot might not be the best
choice as an emergency pilot for a large airliner. He would be too tempted to
try to fly the plane by hand, and he'd end up impacting a mountainside at high
speed, simply because flying by hand is the _last_ thing he should be doing in
that aircraft.

He'd more than likely do a better job of it that you would you
fjukkwit.

I've had private pilots in airoline sims and they were able to get the
airplane down with a minimum of instruction. In fact i once got a
model airplane pilot to do it in a 737 sim and he'd never even been a
passenger in an airliner, and he was only 16.

you otoh, wouldn' have a chance because you wouldn't even be able to
see the MCP with your head up your ass.



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

I've had private pilots in airoline sims and they were able to get the
airplane down with a minimum of instruction. In fact i once got a
model airplane pilot to do it in a 737 sim and he'd never even been a
passenger in an airliner, and he was only 16.

Then why do you maintain that it's difficult?

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Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

This is one reason why I think a small-aircraft pilot might not be the best
choice as an emergency pilot for a large airliner. He would be too tempted to
try to fly the plane by hand, and he'd end up impacting a mountainside at high
speed, simply because flying by hand is the _last_ thing he should be doing in
that aircraft.

He'd more than likely do a better job of it that you would you
fjukkwit.

I suspect he means they might be tempted into 'overcontrolling' but lacks the
vocabulary or brains to say so. I doubt it myself. PPLs probably understand that
issue quite well.

Graham