Navy Struggles With 'Fighter Gap'

Andrew Swallow wrote:

:Ray O'Hara wrote:
: wrote in message
: ...
: See:
:
: http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
: What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
: procurement?
:
: Or something else?
:
: gap vs who?
:
:
:Try the Chinese attack submarines.
:

Oh, don't be silly! How the hell can there be a 'gap' between non-ASW
aircraft and submarines?

The 'gap' being discussed is between retirement dates for F/A-18C/D
airframes and the fleet entry of F-35C to replace them. Without some
action the F/A-18C/D aircraft have to retire, as they are getting too
many flight hours and cat/trap cycles on them to retain without doing
something. Without some sort of procurement there will be no
airframes to replace them with for several years after they are gone.

I don't see how accelerating F-35C buys is possible, since neither the
money nor the aircraft will be available.

Trying to recondition high flight time airframes is probably a
non-starter, since that would probably cost as much as buying them
new. Except you can't buy them new because the C/D line is closed.

To me it makes sense to trade off some or all of the projected future
JSF buy to buy more capable F/A-18E/F airframes at half the price of
buying F-35C.

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

Ray O'Hara wrote:
wrote in message
...

See:

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS


What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
procurement?

Or something else?


gap vs who?



Not a Who, vs Time. Arround the 2016 thru 2025 the F-18's will be at
retirment age. That is the Gap. Right now the JSF may not show up till
then...

wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.


REstart a Line? IN this economy, not going to happen. Big $$$ for short
term work = DOA. Besides Boeing Has other military contracts to fill. A
P-8, There half of the V-22, Perhaps a Tanker, Not to mention upgrades
on current planes or Fixing the F15 problem.

Tiger wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :See:
: :
: :http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
: :
: :
: :What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
: rocurement?
: :
: :Or something else?
: :
:
: My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
: Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
: Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
: fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
: capability earlier for less money.
:
: Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
: some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
: how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
: given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
: cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
: cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
: available.
:
:
:REstart a Line? IN this economy, not going to happen.
:

It could if it turns out to be cheaper than buying F-35B by a good
bit.

:
:Big $$$ for short term work = DOA.
:

What 'short term'? We're not talking about significantly fewer
aircraft than they built the first time around.

:
:Besides Boeing Has other military contracts to fill. A
:P-8, There half of the V-22, Perhaps a Tanker, Not to mention upgrades
n current planes or Fixing the F15 problem.
:

And of those all, only the F-15 is even built at the same facility.
Why do you think there will be money for an F-15 problem fix? This is
MUCH more 'short term work' than restarting a line and building new
aircraft.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.


Ouch. Do you have any idea those things (AV-8B) are to OUR guys?

Dan

Dan wrote:
Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.


Ouch. Do you have any idea How Dangerous those things (AV-8B) are to OUR guys?

Dan

Oops. I forgot a couple of words.

Dan

Dan wrote:
Dan wrote:

Fred J. McCall wrote:

wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.


Ouch. Do you have any idea How Dangerous those things (AV-8B)
are to OUR guys?

Dan


Oops. I forgot a couple of words.

Dan

No more dangerous than the F4U, F7U or F8 were back in the day. Hard to
fly, but the rep is overblown. There have always been birds that tend to
get that dangerous label.

Tiger wrote:
Dan wrote:
Dan wrote:

Fred J. McCall wrote:

wrote:

:See:
:
:http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
:
:
:What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
rocurement?
:
:Or something else?
:

My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
capability earlier for less money.

Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
available.


Ouch. Do you have any idea How Dangerous those things (AV-8B)
are to OUR guys?

Dan


Oops. I forgot a couple of words.

Dan

No more dangerous than the F4U, F7U or F8 were back in the day. Hard to
fly, but the rep is overblown. There have always been birds that tend to
get that dangerous label.


You may want to look at the safety records before you make such
statements...

Dan

Tiger wrote:

an wrote:
: Dan wrote:
:
: Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: wrote:
:
: :See:
: :
: :http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
: :
: :
: :What should the Navy do? Buy more F/A-18's? Speed up JSF
: rocurement?
: :
: :Or something else?
: :
:
: My personal opinion? Buy more Hornets and cut the F-35C buy in half.
: Super Hornets are cheaper than JSF (can probably buy at least 2
: Superbugs per JSF), more capable now than F-35C will be when it
: fields, and are available NOW. You wind up with equal or greater
: capability earlier for less money.
:
: Looking at the difference in price, I'd bet USMC is wishing it had
: some replacement alternative for AV-8B other than F-35B. I don't see
: how they afford the number of replacement airframes (320) they want
: given the price tag of the things. I have to wonder what it would
: cost to have Boeing restart the AV-8B production line and start
: cranking out updated AV-8's and how much before F-35B they'd be
: available.
:
:
: Ouch. Do you have any idea How Dangerous those things (AV-8B)
: are to OUR guys?
:
: Dan
:
:
: Oops. I forgot a couple of words.
:
: Dan
:
:No more dangerous than the F4U, F7U or F8 were back in the day. Hard to
:fly, but the rep is overblown. There have always been birds that tend to
: get that dangerous label.
:

I know a number of folks who fly the AV-8B. They don't seem
particularly terrified at the prospect. The AV-8B isn't particularly
more dangerous than any other aircraft of the same generation.

--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden