Angry [More Info]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 02:08:01 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
roups.com...
I agree Ron, it sounds like a bunch of 172 pilots. I would have had no
problem flying my Mooney under the same situation (IFR of course), in
fact I've flown that route several times. However, I know my Mooney. I
have a factory new (not factory reman, not rebuilt, not overhauled,
factory new) engine with regular oil analysis and scoping. I've also
been known to cross the Gorman pass IFR at night IMC as well (or, if
icing exists, the V25/V27 coastal route).

You like to throw the dice, and hope they come up double 6's. I hope they
do.

If ever you are slapped with some system failure that is necessary to keep
the plane in the air, you just shot craps. In the mountains, (in IFR
especially) you are not too likely to find a good enough landing place to
save your life.

It is all about risk management, and risk acceptance. You are willing to
minimize the risk, and take what ever hand is dealt, from there on out.
Some are not.

Yes, I, and I presume Robert, minimize our risk by assuring that excellent
maintenance is done on our equipment; and by keeping current in our own
aircraft.

This gives us a substantially better than the 1 in 35 chance you seem to
expect you would have had on that flight (that's the odds of rolling double
6's). If those were my odds, I, too, would not take the risk. :-)


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Hilton" wrote in message
nk.net...
Hi,

Unfortunately some folks have degraded the initial thread to some
political rambling, so I figured I'd post this to a new thread.

As I predicted:
1. "non-instrument rated private pilot"
2. "Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed"
3. "a flight plan was not filed for the cross-country flight"
4. "As the airplane proceeded east from the departure airport, the pilot
reported that he was having trouble maintaining outside visual contact and
controlling the airplane and wanted help getting back to the airport."

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X02016&key=1

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

Hilton


Hilton,
We seem to share the frustration of watching someone's reckless disregard
for the consequences inherent in aviation result in the death of themselves
or those who depend on their judgment. In this case it would be revealing
to know if this flight was undertaken through ignorance (which could be a
training issue) or if other external forces (pilot or passenger
getthereitis) or other human factor caused the pilot to disregard the
recommendation regarding VFR flight not recommended. It seems that this
pilot did not recognize the level of risk (and final terror) to which he was
exposing his family.

This frustration lead me to start a thread last April subject "human factors
recklessness", where I said in part
I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
pollution etc)? what can we do? but

I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to strive for
the personal situational control to handle these situations and temptations.
Training (and experience) helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene
etal)

The study of human factors recognizes that (like Pogo) "We have seen the
problem and it is US". Controlling the aircraft is only a part of
successful flight operation, control of the pilot seems to be the largest
part of the problem.

My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.

Recently, Hilton posted:

Hi,

Unfortunately some folks have degraded the initial thread to some
political rambling, so I figured I'd post this to a new thread.

As I predicted:
1. "non-instrument rated private pilot"
2. "Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed"

What does this mean, exactly? A clear, moonless night in a rural area
would qualify. I thought this accident was during a time when IMC
prevailed, regardless of the time of day?

3. "a flight plan was not filed for the cross-country flight"

Would that have made a difference?

4. "As the airplane proceeded east from the departure airport, the
pilot reported that he was having trouble maintaining outside visual
contact and controlling the airplane and wanted help getting back to
the airport."

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X02016&key=1

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

My own rule-of-thumb is that, one might survive a single bad decision, but
would be unlikely to survive multiple simultaneous bad decisions. If this
person took off in IMC (not being instrument rated), he made the worst
possible decision, and any other aspect of the flight only served to
guarantee his demise.

Neil

On 2005-12-29, Neil Gould wrote:
Unfortunately some folks have degraded the initial thread to some
political rambling, so I figured I'd post this to a new thread.

As I predicted:
1. "non-instrument rated private pilot"
2. "Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed"

What does this mean, exactly? A clear, moonless night in a rural area
would qualify. I thought this accident was during a time when IMC
prevailed, regardless of the time of day?

It may qualify, but officially night IMC doesn't mean a clear moonless
night - that's still (officially) night VMC. Also, anywhere where there
is significant amount of lighting on the ground, night VMC (on a clear
moonless night, which is likely to also mean smooth flying conditions)
compared to a cloudy night with poor visibility (which may include
turbulence and icing in the clouds).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:14:10 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:

On 2005-12-29, Neil Gould wrote:
Unfortunately some folks have degraded the initial thread to some
political rambling, so I figured I'd post this to a new thread.

As I predicted:
1. "non-instrument rated private pilot"
2. "Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed"

What does this mean, exactly? A clear, moonless night in a rural area
would qualify. I thought this accident was during a time when IMC
prevailed, regardless of the time of day?

It may qualify, but officially night IMC doesn't mean a clear moonless
night - that's still (officially) night VMC. Also, anywhere where there
is significant amount of lighting on the ground, night VMC (on a clear
moonless night, which is likely to also mean smooth flying conditions)
compared to a cloudy night with poor visibility (which may include
turbulence and icing in the clouds).

A bit off topic, but it does depend on what you credit as being "official".
Certainly, for the purpose of logging instrument flight time, a moonless
night over water may qualify.

From a published FAA legal opinion:

"... actual instrument conditions may
occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with
no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to
maintain adequate control over the aircraft. "

It is also true that you do not require an IFR flight plan under these
conditions.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

"... actual instrument conditions may
occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with
no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to
maintain adequate control over the aircraft. "

That's IC but not IMC. My take on the phase "IMC" has been that the IC must
be caused by M.

- Andrew

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:13:06 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

That's IC but not IMC. My take on the phase "IMC" has been that the IC must
be caused by M.

Upon reflection, I would agree with you.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
It may qualify, but officially night IMC doesn't mean a clear moonless
night - that's still (officially) night VMC. Also, anywhere where there
is significant amount of lighting on the ground, night VMC (on a clear
moonless night, which is likely to also mean smooth flying conditions)
compared to a cloudy night with poor visibility (which may include
turbulence and icing in the clouds).

I was flying from Houston to New Orleans a year or so ago at night...
Technically, it was VMC, but from a practical standpoint, I was flying by
instruments... There was no moon and a high cloud layer that blocked view of
the stars... There were no lights on the ground because I was flying over
swamps... An interesting experience for a VFR pilot, but the air was
smooth, so the stress level wasn't that bad...

Neil wrote:
3. "a flight plan was not filed for the cross-country flight"

Would that have made a difference?

Some pilots on this NG were asking if he was IFR.

Hilton

Hilton wrote:
Neil wrote:
3. "a flight plan was not filed for the cross-country flight"

Would that have made a difference?

Some pilots on this NG were asking if he was IFR.

I don't follow you. He could've asked for a pop-up clearance.

-jav