#1 Piston Fighter was British

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 1:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Precisely. On balance the P-51 might have been better, or more
reliable (even then it had it's share of teething problems), but the
problem was recognised and was being addressed before it showed up.

Gavin Bailey

On balance the attrition was in allied heavy bombers losses deep penetration.
The Luftwaffe lost relatively few fighters against heavy bombers over Berlin
with no fighter cover at all. Before the P-51, the Allied situation in the air
was a losing proposition for the bombers . I guess you have it have flown
bombers to fully understand that.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:56:38 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

Look at what happened before it showed up. There was more going on
than just the Mustang.

What happened before the (extended-range) Mustang showed up? Well, the
German air force was shooting down so many B-17s and B-24s that it
looked possible that the 8th Air Force would have to give up
deep-penetration daylight raids into Germany, to the huge benefit of
Albert Speer and the German war effort.

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November 1943 before the Mustang showed up.
The Mustang accelerated a pre-existing dynamic. I'm not suggesting
that it didn't have a major impact, just that it tends to appropriate
too much of the credit for losses caused by a more diverse force.
Luftwaffe defeats over the battlefronts in the east, over Tunisia or
Sicily or Salerno were not inflicted by the Mustang.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November 1943 before the Mustang showed up.
The Mustang accelerated a pre-existing dynamic. I'm not suggesting
that it didn't have a major impact, just that it tends to appropriate
too much of the credit for losses caused by a more diverse force.
Luftwaffe defeats over the battlefronts in the east, over Tunisia or
Sicily or Salerno were not inflicted by the Mustang.

We're speaking of deep penetration. Where did those German pilot
losses take place--at what distance from the Allied fighter bases?

The Mustang's job was to enable bombers to reach Berlin, not Sicily, a
task that was indeed with the Spitfire's capabilities.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:24:17 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November 1943 before the Mustang showed up.
The Mustang accelerated a pre-existing dynamic. I'm not suggesting
that it didn't have a major impact, just that it tends to appropriate
too much of the credit for losses caused by a more diverse force.
Luftwaffe defeats over the battlefronts in the east, over Tunisia or
Sicily or Salerno were not inflicted by the Mustang.

We're speaking of deep penetration.

No, we're talking about German pilot attrittion. It's irrelevant
whether that occurred on deep-penetration missions,
shallow-penetration missions, or over the battlefront.

Where did those German pilot
losses take place--at what distance from the Allied fighter bases?

I don't understand this point. In any case, I don't have that
information. I presume Luftwaffe combat losses (as opposed to
non-combat losses) were largely inflicted by enemy aircraft, with
enemy fighters being the most significant individual factor.

The Mustang's job was to enable bombers to reach Berlin, not Sicily, a
task that was indeed with the Spitfire's capabilities.

Sure. But that's not what I'm arguing about. The war-winning
criticality attributed to the Mustang usually stems from the level of
loss inflicted on the German day fighter arm in the spring of 1944. I
merely want to point out that this critical level of attrition had
already been achieved before the Mustang showed up, and that there
were other aircraft and forces working in concert with the Mustang to
achieve this end.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 1:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November

True. we had a few misions where we got Spitfire esocrts. It went like this'
They would pick us up at about the bomb line. Sock in all around ur and stay
with us for a while. Then with a gallant wiggle of wings they would break of
and turn back, Gavin have you have any idea of what it feels like to be in
bomber heading into the Ruhr valley and watch your fighter escort go home and
leave you? No. You can't even know that feeling.You can understand it
intellectually, but you will never really know the feeling. The 51's took us
all the way in and all the way back. That was the difference.And in that
difference lay life and death.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Marauders at low-medium altitude
destroyed the beach defenses on their alloted targets.

One beach. Utah. There were other factors involved, but yes, the
American army suffered exactly 12 men killed in the initial landing at
Utah, and that was in part thanks to the Marauders operating at very
low level. Some said 500 feet, which is considerably below the pattern
altitude at the local airport.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Cub Driver
Date: 6/30/03 2:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Marauders at low-medium altitude
destroyed the beach defenses on their alloted targets.

One beach. Utah. There were other factors involved, but yes, the
American army suffered exactly 12 men killed in the initial landing at
Utah, and that was in part thanks to the Marauders operating at very
low level. Some said 500 feet, which is considerably below the pattern
altitude at the local airport.



What bomb Group was that?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
Marauders at low-medium altitude
destroyed the beach defenses on their alloted targets.

One beach. Utah. There were other factors involved, but yes, the
American army suffered exactly 12 men killed in the initial landing at
Utah, and that was in part thanks to the Marauders operating at very
low level. Some said 500 feet, which is considerably below the pattern
altitude at the local airport.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)


The Germans at Utah had exactly one standing 88mm left and even that
jamned due to shrapnel damage so they had no choice but to surrender.

The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds. Another factor was the
12th Waffen SS division with experience on the Russian front having
been missed by allied intelligence and not being to far from the
scene.

The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds.

The B-24s and B-17s had to drop through the clouds. To avoid hitting
American troops, they aimed conservatively, and as a consequence the
bulk of the explosives landed behind the German beach defenses.

At the altitude the B-26s bombed at Utah, rifle fire was a serious
obstacle.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On 30 Jun 2003 18:07:40 -0700, (The
Enlightenment) wrote:


The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds. Another factor was the
12th Waffen SS division with experience on the Russian front having
been missed by allied intelligence and not being to far from the
scene.

I guess you meant 352nd division. "Hitlerjugend" division had no
combat experience prior to Normandy capaign.


Drax