cost of ownership

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
when I bought my current plane, I went after a low time factory reman.
engine.

Which makes no sense as it has a Continental. The last thing I want is
Continental jugs. Chromed Continental cylinders would be OK.

David Megginson wrote:

Not necessarily -- if the market is working correctly, the difference
between the cost of a plane with a new engine and a plane with a run-out
engine should be about equal to the cost of an overhaul.

My experience from perusing the ads is that the difference in price is about half the
actual overhaul cost.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

By the way, the plane we bought had a low to mid time engine, 700hrs on
a 2000hr TBO, Lycoming IO-360. It still needed an overhaul, and not
just because of the damage done by the prop strike.

The term "buyer beware" has incredible significance in this market.
Keeping an airplane in good shape is expensive, and not everyone does
more than they absolutely have to. Don't buy the cheapest plane you
find, don't believe ANYTHING the seller/broker/whoever says without
written proof, and don't go it alone---find a knowledgeable friend who
has been there to walk through it with you. You need someone on your
side. If you don't have a friend like this, go make one!

Lastly, don't believe anything you read on the Internet. Read Ron
Wanttaja's book about airplane ownership, it will put you on the right road.

Elwood

The Weiss Family wrote:
: A 172, cherk 180, etc.
: I'm trying to figure out how much renting I have to do before it becomes
: plausible to own.
: Any advice as to insurance, fixed and variable costs, etc.
: Thanks

As posted by a number of others, there are unquantifiable differences between
renting an owning. Someone said, "Renting is for 90 minute local flights and owning
is for trips." That's probably pretty close to accurate. If you never plan on taking
the plane more places than a quick 1-2 hour flight, renting starts make a lot of
sense. If you plan on taking it on longer trips, it's just not an option, from both
logistics and cost. For example, I flew my Cherokee from SW Virginia to SE Minnesota
over easter. Total, direct costs incurred by the 14 hour, ~1200 nm flight, $250
*round trip*. The rest of the costs are roughly fixed so it encourages flying. If it
were renting (and even possible to take such a trip), it'd be $1000 or more... much
more thought necessary to justify it.

My partners and I do things as inexpensively as possible on the plane. I do
the work under supervision of my A&P. Replace things as necessary, but mostly keep a
close eye on everything (maintainance-wise) all the time so if something goes you know
about it beforehand. If you don't do that, relatively minor expenses can add up
quickly due to incidental damage.

For me, owning means I forget about the fixed costs because I've already paid
for them, and just look at the direct costs of flying somewhere... roughly
$15-$20/hour on cargas. In the area bopping around at 45% power... $10-$15/hour.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

There is a big difference between owning and renting. Let me explain.

When you own a plane, you know exactly where it has been, who has been
flying it and working on it, when the oil was changed last, what that
funny smell is. You know no one other than you (or your partners if you
have them) has landed the plane hard and tried to hide it, or buzzed an
irate neighbor, etc. Peace of mind. If you rent long enough you will
see some crazy crap that people pull.

To pay for this peace of mind, you have to come up cash for all of the
regular bills: fuel and oil, maintenance, hangar, insurance. This list
can be as fancy or tame as you want, but for a trainer it breaks down
pretty easily. I'll mock one up so you can see:

insurance: $800/yr
tie-down: $480/yr (40/mo)
loan pmts: $3600/yr (300/mo)
annual: $1000/yr
flying: $2000/yr (2.50/gal, 8gph, 100hrs)
misc: $1000/yr (oil, light bulbs, unplanned)
--------
$8880/yr = $740/mo

Sure you can make it cheaper. Do a lot of your own maintenance, get a
plane with an auto gas STC, all kinds of things. Get a homebuilt, you
might cut that value in half, many owners have.

Now, to answer your question about a break-even point, if you are paying
$75/hr to rent that trainer then that 100 hrs costs you $7500, no
variation. You might find a cheaper rental, but other than that you
have no options in making it cheaper.

Now, here we get to the real difference. "Breaking even" happens
somewhere around 125 hours in this model, but doing this kind of math is
entirely misleading. There are many, many variables in ownership that
simply don't exist when renting. More to the point, there are
responsibilities that don't exist for renters. When it breaks YOU pay
for it. Sometimes it breaks in a very big way.

Our plane broke in a very big way just after we bought it. Nosegear
collapsed on the 8th landing we made. Got the engine apart---yep, it
needs a complete overhaul, because prepurchase inspections do not have
x-ray vision. Even after the insurance settlement we paid over 1/3
again for the plane, not counting the $2500 to get my family home from
the middle of nowhere on a commercial airline.

This is not to scare you. We rebuilt our plane and it ROCKS. I could
never go back to renting even if I had one next door. However, you have
to know what responsibilities you are taking on, and how you are going
to answer them if they call. We are lucky, we have some home equity we
could spend on the plane. If I hadn't had that, what kind of repairs
would I have been able to afford? Would I have put my family back into
it with cheaper repairs?

In this way it is no different from an RV or a nice boat---the costs are
similar. But your family is not necessarily in danger if you go cheap
on fixing your RV.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some things to think about. Use your
imagination and try to think of bad things that could happen, and how
much they could cost, and how you will afford them if they do. Think of
this as a graduation in responsibility and you will be better prepared
to accept the benefits.

hope this helps

Elwood


The Weiss Family wrote:
I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for your fixed gear

Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

thanks!

Adam

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
There is a big difference between owning and renting. Let me explain.

When you own a plane, you know exactly where it has been, who has been
flying it and working on it, when the oil was changed last, what that
funny smell is. You know no one other than you (or your partners if you
have them) has landed the plane hard and tried to hide it, or buzzed an
irate neighbor, etc. Peace of mind. If you rent long enough you will
see some crazy crap that people pull.

To pay for this peace of mind, you have to come up cash for all of the
regular bills: fuel and oil, maintenance, hangar, insurance. This list
can be as fancy or tame as you want, but for a trainer it breaks down
pretty easily. I'll mock one up so you can see:

insurance: $800/yr
tie-down: $480/yr (40/mo)
loan pmts: $3600/yr (300/mo)
annual: $1000/yr
flying: $2000/yr (2.50/gal, 8gph, 100hrs)
misc: $1000/yr (oil, light bulbs, unplanned)
--------
$8880/yr = $740/mo

Sure you can make it cheaper. Do a lot of your own maintenance, get a
plane with an auto gas STC, all kinds of things. Get a homebuilt, you
might cut that value in half, many owners have.

Now, to answer your question about a break-even point, if you are paying
$75/hr to rent that trainer then that 100 hrs costs you $7500, no
variation. You might find a cheaper rental, but other than that you
have no options in making it cheaper.

Now, here we get to the real difference. "Breaking even" happens
somewhere around 125 hours in this model, but doing this kind of math is
entirely misleading. There are many, many variables in ownership that
simply don't exist when renting. More to the point, there are
responsibilities that don't exist for renters. When it breaks YOU pay
for it. Sometimes it breaks in a very big way.

Our plane broke in a very big way just after we bought it. Nosegear
collapsed on the 8th landing we made. Got the engine apart---yep, it
needs a complete overhaul, because prepurchase inspections do not have
x-ray vision. Even after the insurance settlement we paid over 1/3
again for the plane, not counting the $2500 to get my family home from
the middle of nowhere on a commercial airline.

This is not to scare you. We rebuilt our plane and it ROCKS. I could
never go back to renting even if I had one next door. However, you have
to know what responsibilities you are taking on, and how you are going
to answer them if they call. We are lucky, we have some home equity we
could spend on the plane. If I hadn't had that, what kind of repairs
would I have been able to afford? Would I have put my family back into
it with cheaper repairs?

In this way it is no different from an RV or a nice boat---the costs are
similar. But your family is not necessarily in danger if you go cheap
on fixing your RV.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some things to think about. Use your
imagination and try to think of bad things that could happen, and how
much they could cost, and how you will afford them if they do. Think of
this as a graduation in responsibility and you will be better prepared
to accept the benefits.

hope this helps

Elwood


The Weiss Family wrote:
I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for your fixed
gear

Glad to hear! Keep us in the loop.

More advice: don't forget about the non-CessnaPiper planes out there,
or even some of the lesser known models of brand C and P. There are
some fantastic deals. Cessna Cardinal RGs and Mooney M20C and -E, for
example, all go 145 knots on 9-10gph. The Cardinal comes in a
welded-leg version as well.

Mooneys are great planes if you can fit into them. In my experience, if
you are comfortable in a Cherokee you can squeeze in.

I feel claustrophobic with small cabins and only one door, so we bought
a Beechcraft Sierra, same engine as the Mooney and Cardinal RG but only
135kt or so---but a cabin nearly as big as our station wagon. The fixed
gear version is a Musketeer or Sundowner. Not all have two doors, but
some even have a kid-size bench seat in the baggage area.

We decided that cabin size and ease of egress were more important than
speed, so we ended up with a Beech instead of a Mooney. It was a toss
up between the Sierra and the Cardinal RG---the Sierra was about 4/5 the
cost.

Best thing to do is to get Ron Wanttaja's book, one of the Bill Clarke
anthologies, or an older edition of Aviation Consumer's guide to used
planes, and look through the stats. Figure out what's important, and go
from there. When you have it narrowed down, join the type club mailing
lists. Both the Cardinal list and the Musketeer list have been
fantastic resources.



The Weiss Family wrote:
Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

Elwood,

I was thinking about updating to the new aviation consumer book. Why do you
recommend the older ones? Has there been a change? The one I have from the
eighties seems fairly written.


"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
Glad to hear! Keep us in the loop.

More advice: don't forget about the non-CessnaPiper planes out there,
or even some of the lesser known models of brand C and P. There are
some fantastic deals. Cessna Cardinal RGs and Mooney M20C and -E, for
example, all go 145 knots on 9-10gph. The Cardinal comes in a
welded-leg version as well.

Mooneys are great planes if you can fit into them. In my experience, if
you are comfortable in a Cherokee you can squeeze in.

I feel claustrophobic with small cabins and only one door, so we bought
a Beechcraft Sierra, same engine as the Mooney and Cardinal RG but only
135kt or so---but a cabin nearly as big as our station wagon. The fixed
gear version is a Musketeer or Sundowner. Not all have two doors, but
some even have a kid-size bench seat in the baggage area.

We decided that cabin size and ease of egress were more important than
speed, so we ended up with a Beech instead of a Mooney. It was a toss
up between the Sierra and the Cardinal RG---the Sierra was about 4/5 the
cost.

Best thing to do is to get Ron Wanttaja's book, one of the Bill Clarke
anthologies, or an older edition of Aviation Consumer's guide to used
planes, and look through the stats. Figure out what's important, and go
from there. When you have it narrowed down, join the type club mailing
lists. Both the Cardinal list and the Musketeer list have been
fantastic resources.



The Weiss Family wrote:
Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best
not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

Dude wrote:
Elwood,

I was thinking about updating to the new aviation consumer book. Why do you
recommend the older ones? Has there been a change? The one I have from the
eighties seems fairly written.

Only because the older ones can be found used for $10 or so. The new
one is $50 plus shipping. I have read some of the later (updated)
reports, and it didn't seem to me that there was $40 worth of new
information there.

Then again, if you are well heeled it is very interesting to compare the
reports of, say, an older Comanche to a newer Cirrus SR20. But then if
you are that well heeled, you can afford the $40!

I think I'm going to stick with a fixed gear to start.
I've been eyeing the Musketeer, but I'm a little worried about the IO-346.
All the 0-360 ones I've seen (or can afford) are only 150HP, but the IO-346
is 165HP.
Anyway, point well taken. I like Beech's as well.
Thanks


Adam

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
Glad to hear! Keep us in the loop.

More advice: don't forget about the non-CessnaPiper planes out there,
or even some of the lesser known models of brand C and P. There are
some fantastic deals. Cessna Cardinal RGs and Mooney M20C and -E, for
example, all go 145 knots on 9-10gph. The Cardinal comes in a
welded-leg version as well.

Mooneys are great planes if you can fit into them. In my experience, if
you are comfortable in a Cherokee you can squeeze in.

I feel claustrophobic with small cabins and only one door, so we bought
a Beechcraft Sierra, same engine as the Mooney and Cardinal RG but only
135kt or so---but a cabin nearly as big as our station wagon. The fixed
gear version is a Musketeer or Sundowner. Not all have two doors, but
some even have a kid-size bench seat in the baggage area.

We decided that cabin size and ease of egress were more important than
speed, so we ended up with a Beech instead of a Mooney. It was a toss
up between the Sierra and the Cardinal RG---the Sierra was about 4/5 the
cost.

Best thing to do is to get Ron Wanttaja's book, one of the Bill Clarke
anthologies, or an older edition of Aviation Consumer's guide to used
planes, and look through the stats. Figure out what's important, and go
from there. When you have it narrowed down, join the type club mailing
lists. Both the Cardinal list and the Musketeer list have been
fantastic resources.



The Weiss Family wrote:
Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best
not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.