Why fly fast approaches?

EDR wrote
Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

This is required in large airplanes (Vref, anyone) and perfectly
reasonable in ANY airplane. All speeds change with weight. I think
what you did was fine. On the other hand, lots of people don't do it,
and simply use the full-gross speeds as published - and then maybe add
a few knots.

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

This is nonsense. If you have that much deformation of the wing, or
that much weight that is unaccounted for, the plane is not airworthy.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot too - but I don't
agree with it. Better to teach it right from the start.

I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

As I said - there's nothing wrong with your thinking.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway.

No kidding...

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

My perspective is that at 1200 hours, you might want to start thinking
about becoming an instructor yourself. What you experienced is,
unfortunately, more the rule than the exception, and is the kind of
nonsense that eventually prompted me to become an instructor.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

My perspective is that at 1200 hours, you might want to start thinking
about becoming an instructor yourself. What you experienced is,
unfortunately, more the rule than the exception, and is the kind of
nonsense that eventually prompted me to become an instructor.

We have one second-hand report of an instructor like this. Every other
instructor who posts here disagreed with him. Yet you think this single
instructor represents the "rule" rather than the "exception."

"C J Campbell" wrote
We have one second-hand report of an instructor like this.

No, we have the latest report of an instructor like this. Over the
years, I've noticed that they pop up with great regularity. In fact,
I remember contributing one myself a bit over a decade ago.

Every other instructor who posts here disagreed with him.

Thank heaven for small favors. But the instructors here are hardly
representative of the instructor population as a whole.

Yet you think this single
instructor represents the "rule" rather than the "exception."

My experience indicates to me that this is indeed the case. Using
some highly sophisticated tools (lawnchair and cold beverage) I have
been able to observe the speeds flown on final many times, and at many
airports. The vast majority are flying final too fast.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

My experience indicates to me that this is indeed the case. Using
some highly sophisticated tools (lawnchair and cold beverage) I have
been able to observe the speeds flown on final many times, and at many
airports. The vast majority are flying final too fast.

Well, OK. But I want to see how you measure the speed of airplanes using a
lawnchair and cold beverage. :-)

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:19:53 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"Michael" wrote in message
. com...

My experience indicates to me that this is indeed the case. Using
some highly sophisticated tools (lawnchair and cold beverage) I have
been able to observe the speeds flown on final many times, and at many
airports. The vast majority are flying final too fast.

Well, OK. But I want to see how you measure the speed of airplanes using a
lawnchair and cold beverage. :-)


That's no problem. The more cold beverages the faster the approaches.
The lawn chair provides a stable platform to conduct the test.

z

"C J Campbell" wrote
My experience indicates to me that this is indeed the case. Using
some highly sophisticated tools (lawnchair and cold beverage) I have
been able to observe the speeds flown on final many times, and at many
airports. The vast majority are flying final too fast.

Well, OK. But I want to see how you measure the speed of airplanes using a
lawnchair and cold beverage. :-)

It's quite simple. I sit in the lawn chair and face the runway. I
note the beverage level in the container, and begin drinking at a
known calibrated rate as the plane crosses the runway threshold. I
stop drinking as the plane makes its touchdown. By noting the point
at which the airplane touched down and the amount of beverage
consumed, I can easily calculate the average speed flown on very short
final.

Is this not common knowledge?

Michael

EDR wrote:

I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards.

This is completely reasonable. I just did my annual club checkride. This
requires flight to PPL standards. But since I'm (slowly) working on my
CPL, that's what I aimed for and what the CFI and I discussed.

If nothing else, this made the ride a lot more fun.

I think your instructor has some issues with slow flight. In fact...how
does he handle the situation when you're at MCA? When you stall?

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
EDR wrote:

I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards.

This is completely reasonable. I just did my annual club checkride. This
requires flight to PPL standards. But since I'm (slowly) working on my
CPL, that's what I aimed for and what the CFI and I discussed.


Every instructor I know requires a pilot to fly up to the standards of his
certificates and ratings when he does a check-out, flight review, or
whatever. If you sign a guy off and he has a commercial certificate and
instrument rating and he can't fly to those standards then I think you might
have some liability there.

C J Campbell wrote:

Every instructor I know requires a pilot to fly up to the standards of his
certificates and ratings when he does a check-out, flight review, or
whatever. If you sign a guy off and he has a commercial certificate and
instrument rating and he can't fly to those standards then I think you
might have some liability there.

I doubt it, although I cannot explain the reasoning myself.

First, we just redid our insurance. Naturally, they reviewed our rules.
But for adding a tighter currency requirement for a retract, they had
nothing but praise for our operational rules - which included the checkouts
we do.

As I said, I cannot explain the reasoning myself. I did, when I first
joined, expect precisely what you're suggesting.

Second, keep in mind that this wasn't a checkout mandated by anything other
than club rules. We're essentially a large partnership. As an ownership
situation, this is different from a "rental" type of environment.

As an owner, the only requirements "mandated" (beyond the FAA rules, of
course) are those dictated by insurance. As I mentioned, we satisfy
these...although, as I also said, I originally expected precisely what
you've suggested.

- Andrew

"EDR" wrote in message
...
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Our airplanes are nearly sixty years old. Age hasn't affected their stalls
speed, but engine conversions, modifications, etc... do.

All the instructor has to do is go up and stall the airplane in various
configurations to get the actual numbers if he really thinks they are not
as published.

I fear the "more is better syndrome" has affected your CFI. A shame.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)