Motorgliders (long)

Hey, Tom. I wasn't talking about you. I have no doubt that you could have
done your 1000K with a pure sailplane. You did your homework and deserve
the bragging rights. I was speaking of others who just keep relying on the
engine to save the day when it goes bad until they get lucky and bag a big
flight.

There are also sailplane pilots who venture over dangerous terrain and get
lucky enough to get away with it - for awhile.

However, there are others who make their own luck with skill and knowledge
and have flown astonishing flights for many decades with incident. These
people have done their homework, understand the risks and how to manage
them. Most of them kept notebooks with drawings and notes about safe
landing sites in difficult areas. they spent a lot of time driving remote
area to get this information. As I said, it takes work and perseverance to
make the big flights without a motor. I respect that.

Bill Daniels


"Tom Serkowski" wrote in message
m...
Holy cow Bill, you can't be serious?!

The only differences I've observed so far a

- I can take a 'tow' when I feel like it and can 'release' at a place
convenient to me. In other words, I don't wait in line for takeoff
and I have the 'towplane' all to myself and can 'hang on' for 20 or 30
miles as I seek a good/convenient place to release. This, of course,
is not while participating in a contest.

- I worry less about needing a retreive. I still think about it and
plan my glides appropriately. I sweat just as hard in my ASH-26E as I
did in the ASW-20B when I'm low. I don't want to use the engine. It
'spoils' a soaring acheivement for me.

The bottom line is that flying a self-launcher or turbo, is probably
very similar to going XC back in the 40's and 50's. Back then
sailplanes flew slow enough that the crew could generally keep up and
stay below the pilot. Today, XC speeds are just too high (nost of the
time) for this to be possible. The motor is just an extension of the
crew. When I finally do start the engine and begin climbing away, I'm
just as exhausted and disappointed as I would have been if I'd landed.
And, I don't think I've put any less effort into the flight than your
'pure' sailplane pilot.

Flying as if the motor will ALWAYS start is a very bad idea and is
equivalent to pressing on because 'there will be a thermal ahead'. In
either case, the plane and the pilot may be hurt. Some people do it
anyway, whether they have a motor or not. So where on your 'hero
list' would you put the 'pure' sailplane pilot who pushed on into
unlandable terrain and got away with it?

-Tom
ASH-26E (5Z)

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
link.net...
We fly merely for the bragging rights. MG's are a very convenient, low
risk, low effort way to fly. Pure sailplanes are hard work and require
that
an endless series of difficult decisions be made before and during
flight.
Pure sailplanes will always earn the greatest bragging rights for any
given
flight.

They should also earn the greatest points in contests.

I think JJ is right to dig in his heels and insist that this sport
remain
soaring in the traditional sense.

Bill Daniels

In article . net,
says...
Hey, Tom. I wasn't talking about you. I have no doubt that you could have
done your 1000K with a pure sailplane. You did your homework and deserve
the bragging rights. I was speaking of others who just keep relying on the
engine to save the day when it goes bad until they get lucky and bag a big
flight.

There are also sailplane pilots who venture over dangerous terrain and get
lucky enough to get away with it - for awhile.

However, there are others who make their own luck with skill and knowledge
and have flown astonishing flights for many decades with incident. These
people have done their homework, understand the risks and how to manage
them. Most of them kept notebooks with drawings and notes about safe
landing sites in difficult areas. they spent a lot of time driving remote
area to get this information. As I said, it takes work and perseverance to
make the big flights without a motor. I respect that.

So, it takes "work and perseverance" to make a big flight without a
motor, but you also credit Tom with "work and perseverance", even though
he flies with a motor. It sounds like it's not the motor that's
important to you, but your perception of how much skill vs luck went
into the flight. In other words, just like we've always done:

- the 1-26 driver gets big credit for a 500K flight, but not the ASW 22
pilot

- the 500K done at Minden gets a ho-hum, but the 500K done in Minnesota
gets a "job well done!"

- the guy that lands out, hitch hikes home, then retrieves himself gets
the admiration; the guy that lands at an airport and gets an aero-
retrieve doesn't even get a "how did it go"

Someday, motors in gliders won't seem so special, and they'll just be
one more factor in how we judge a glider pilot. Personally, my favorite
way is to measure the size of the smile on his (or her) face after
landing.

--
== change the decimal.point in my address to . to reply directly

In article . net,
says...
There is always this question after a good flight in a MG - was the pilot
good or did he get lucky after a dumb decision? There's no way to tell.

Motorgliders, like pure sailplanes before them, will continue to improve and
the rules for their use will continue to liberalize. It all makes me wonder
if we will end up with mere powered airplanes that must only demonstrate an
ability to "glide" to a landing. This is a slippery slope and if we go that
far, it would be very sad.

When I got my motorglider in 1995, there were still a lot "purists", who
warned me (and others) a motorglider would soon turn me into a real wuss
- little more than a power pilot flying a bad airplane.

The years went by, the purists have almost vanished, and instead of
warnings about what the motorglider will do to me, pilots tell me their
envy at my independence and the flights I make. They express the hope
that some day, they can afford to step up to a motorglider. They know an
ASH 26 E isn't a "mere powered airplane".

We fly merely for the bragging rights.

Surely you don't mean this? Most of us seem to fly for the joy of
soaring, and bragging rights are just an occasional bonus.

MG's are a very convenient,

Convenient at the launch and at the end of a flight if you didn't get
home, but otherwise more trouble. Anything with an engine is more hassle
and expense to own.

low risk,

My experience: to maintain the same risk you would have flying a
motorless glider, you must be a more careful pilot. This is due to the
extra complexity of operation, the additional maintenance required, and
the additional vulnerability during self-launch. Not everyone is up to
the task.

low effort way to fly.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I work just as hard now as I did
before. I know what does reduce the effort to fly: more L/D! Every time
I went up in L/D, the flying got easier, and I didn't get in trouble as
often.

Pure sailplanes are hard work and require that
an endless series of difficult decisions be made before and during flight.

I haven't noticed a motor reducing the decision making or the work, but
I have noticed more L/D can reduce the number of decisions I _need_ to
make. The more L/D I have, the better the "waffle along until I blunder
into a thermal" technique works, for example.

Pure sailplanes will always earn the greatest bragging rights for any given
flight.

They should also earn the greatest points in contests.

I think JJ is right to dig in his heels and insist that this sport remain
soaring in the traditional sense.

And what is "soaring in the traditional sense" when we are talking about
contests? In the 28+ years I've been with this sport, I've seen contests
change considerably. Remember when we used to choose our own launch
times? When we flew distance tasks - real distance tasks when you left
as soon as you could stay up, and flew straight out until you couldn't
stay up? Exactly what "tradition" would you have us remain with?

--
== change the decimal.point in my address to . to reply directly

I'm beginning to wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of contest
penalty for people who repair their own gliders.

Consider for a moment a long final glide over sagebrush terrain. Two
competitors are at the same position and zero-margin height. One can
repair his glider overnight if he lands in the sage. The other can't.
Which one will be more likely to attempt the marginal final glide?

Maybe we ought to level the playing field by landing the guy with the
repair station certificate back at the last turnpoint unless he
finishes at 500 feet...



Bob "juuuuust kidding!" K.

No Bob, you're definitely on to something here. Let's also dock the best
bull$hit artists 100 points per day because even with poor results, they'll
still have better stories than the rest of us.


"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
I'm beginning to wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of contest
penalty for people who repair their own gliders.

Consider for a moment a long final glide over sagebrush terrain. Two
competitors are at the same position and zero-margin height. One can
repair his glider overnight if he lands in the sage. The other can't.
Which one will be more likely to attempt the marginal final glide?

Maybe we ought to level the playing field by landing the guy with the
repair station certificate back at the last turnpoint unless he
finishes at 500 feet...



Bob "juuuuust kidding!" K.

Eric asked for examples of motorglider advantage in contests.

My favorite story occured at the Minden regionals, a few years back. Gary and
I were working a decent little thermal, deep in the boonies, north of Basalt. I
spotted a wing flash on the next ridge and figured, "Anybody out here, knows
what they're doing." We left our 3 knotter and joined the glider I had spotted.
He didn't have a thing, just junk. Mad at myself for leaving the 3 knot
thermal, we all started a glide for Hawthorne. Gary was on the left, the
unknown glider, in the middle and I was on the right. As the ground became an
item of interest (read, we were below 1000 feet and Hawthorne was still more
than 10 miles away), I saw two little dors open on the unknown glider and an
IRON THERMAL appeared. Gary and I landed at Garlach Flats, its actually a
bombing range that isn't a restricted area. the Army tests cluster bombs there.
They just fly over with a cluster bomb slung below a helicopter, look all
around and if they don't see anybody on the ground, or in the air, they drop
the sucker. The individual bomblets are inert, they are just checking for a
good dispersal pattern.

Anyway, we landed in this bombing range. I shouted to Gary at the last moment,
to land outside the fence. Supper that night consisted of my apple and Gary's
candy bar. I gave him exactly half of my apple, but I think I got shorted on
his Baby Ruth. We gathered up all the fire wood we could find and then about
sundown, I felt the *call of nature*. I wiped myself with half of the task
sheet and then used the other half to start a fire. About 10 PM, the last of
the wood was consumed, so we got in our cockpits and settled down for a long,
gold night. As I drifted off to sleep I thought, "Wonder where that motorglider
is sleeping tonight."
JJ Sinclair

In article ,
says...
Eric asked for examples of motorglider advantage in contests.

Actually, it was someone else, who said they'd like to hear from
MOTORGLIDER pilots about what they thought their advantages were. I
seconded the motion, since we'd been hearing a lot about motorglider
advantages from pilots that weren't motorglider pilots. And we still
are.

The situation JJ describes below is a well recognized advantage of
motorgliders. I've never disputed it. When the lift is too weak that NO
ONE can stay up, the advantage goes to the motorglider, since he'll
usually get home sooner, even if everyone lands at an airport.

As an aside, I sometimes miss the retrieves. They were generally quite
entertaining, often involving odd characters and unusual situations, as
JJ so well relates (no, no, I don't mean JJ or Gary are odd
characters!). Even though the retrieves left me with a bundle of good
stories, and I'm glad I flew motorless gliders, after 20 years and 3000
hours in motorless gliders, I decided I'd been there, done that, and it
was time to try something new.

So, are there any MOTORGLIDER pilots that would like to divulge their
advantages?

My favorite story occured at the Minden regionals, a few years back. Gary and
I were working a decent little thermal, deep in the boonies, north of Basalt. I
spotted a wing flash on the next ridge and figured, "Anybody out here, knows
what they're doing." We left our 3 knotter and joined the glider I had spotted.
He didn't have a thing, just junk. Mad at myself for leaving the 3 knot
thermal, we all started a glide for Hawthorne. Gary was on the left, the
unknown glider, in the middle and I was on the right. As the ground became an
item of interest (read, we were below 1000 feet and Hawthorne was still more
than 10 miles away), I saw two little dors open on the unknown glider and an
IRON THERMAL appeared. Gary and I landed at Garlach Flats, its actually a
bombing range that isn't a restricted area. the Army tests cluster bombs there.
They just fly over with a cluster bomb slung below a helicopter, look all
around and if they don't see anybody on the ground, or in the air, they drop
the sucker. The individual bomblets are inert, they are just checking for a
good dispersal pattern.

Anyway, we landed in this bombing range. I shouted to Gary at the last moment,
to land outside the fence. Supper that night consisted of my apple and Gary's
candy bar. I gave him exactly half of my apple, but I think I got shorted on
his Baby Ruth. We gathered up all the fire wood we could find and then about
sundown, I felt the *call of nature*. I wiped myself with half of the task
sheet and then used the other half to start a fire. About 10 PM, the last of
the wood was consumed, so we got in our cockpits and settled down for a long,
gold night. As I drifted off to sleep I thought, "Wonder where that motorglider
is sleeping tonight."
JJ Sinclair


--
-----
Eric Greenwell USA

At 02:42 29 September 2003, Eric Greenwell wrote:
In article ,
says...
Actually, it was someone else, who said they'd like
to hear from MOTORGLIDER pilots about what they thought
their advantages were. I seconded the motion, since
we'd been hearing a lot about motorglider advantages
from pilots that weren't motorglider pilots. And we
still are.
****
Chuck Writes;
OK here goes ....

My focus is upon Private Glider Pilot-in fixed wing
experimental
aircraft as an alternative to the Sport Pilot initiative
with it's focus on no medical required.

The Private Glider Pilot Certificate is already available
to the pilot that is unable to obtain a medical, but
still wants to fly.

It appears that these (glider) privileges AND AIRCRAFT
capabilities are far greater than those offered by
the Sport Pilot Proposal. And, the Infrastructure for
training and certification is already in place.

These greater privileges include;

no medical (Sport requires State Driver license)

no weight restriction (Sport = 1235lbs Gross)

no passenger restriction (surprised?) (Sport = 2 px)

no speed restriction (Sport =132mph)

no restriction on retractable gear (Sport =restricted)

no restriction of in-flight adjustable prop. (Sport
= restricted)

no multi engine or type restriction (Sport = single
engine )

no altitude restrictions (including Class A windows)
(Sport
=10,000ft)

no airspace restrictions (Sport = Endorsement required
-

no ELT requirements (Sport = for more than one
seat - required -

no transponder requirement in Mode-C veil or above
10,000ft (Sport = required -)

flight at night permitted (Sport = Restricted to
Day VFR with
greater visibility requirements : 3 mile Class G)

Transitional training for Private Pilot serves as
BFR and is only 3 hours

Minimum new Glider student Training hours =10. (Sport
= 17hours)

Recognised by IOAC - Sport and Rec.Pilot not recognised

Flight outside US borders permited - Sport/Rec. =no

No make/model endorsement requirements. (Sport = requires
endorsement for EACH make and model)

(Make and model endorsement required of all Private
Pilots
flying under Sport Privileges without a medical)

No Tailwheel endorsement required (Sport = standards
set within the FAR's)

No endorsement for 'complex' operations - (Variable
pitch prop,
retract gear, flaps) Sport = don't even think about
it

No endorsement for 'high performance' Glider (greater
than 200
HP.) Part 61.31(e) (f)


Within the regulations for certification/registration
of
EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, (Special Airworthiness) there
are no minimum requirements related to the designs,
flight characteristics, weight or configuration for
the registration/airworthyness certifications of an
EXPERIMENTAL glider (motorglider...motor does not
appear on the registration)

Therefore, I think it very possible to register any
experimental
aircraft as experimental glider and enjoy all of the
privileges
associated with that pilot certification.

As an example of one such registration, I submit the
following,

A Quicksilver MXII Ultralight trainer. -
BURNS JOHN M III
Model Name : QCKSLVR MX 2 SPRINT
Manufacturer : BURNS JOHN M III
Model Name : QCKSLVR MX 2 SPRINT
Aircraft Type : Glider
N-number : N62538
Engine Type : Reciprocating
Aircraft Category : Land
Number of Engines : 1
Number of Seats : 2
Max. Gross Weight : Less than 12,500 lbs
Amateur Certification : Yes
Aircraft Code : 05607UQ

AND at the other end of the spectrum ..

Burt Rutan's 16 ft wing span, rocket powered -
SpaceShipOne rocket-propelled Experimental Registered
Glider N-328KF

http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2003/July/150

(must copy and paste entire string)

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero...tos/images/800
/feather800.jpg

Here's My Motor Glider, the Oldershaw 0-3 N-25888
Parked on my pad behind my house.

(must copy and paste entire string to your browser)

http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/Pl...fm?PlaneID=251

Chuck