Slip to landing on PPG practical test

(Chip Bearden) writes:

....

"Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one."

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane
but I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past
us as far as I could see.

Was that with shoulder hitches? or a nose hook? With shoulder hitches
you can bend the hook on the outside so it will not release cleanly.

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Here's a radical idea for the ASW-12. Jettison the
canopy, on the theory that it will then fly as if dive
brakes were open. grin

As I recall hearing, the L/D was 28/1 with the drogue
deployed. Are there any still flying? Seems I recall
a concerted effort to remove them from the market in
order to save lives.


At 15:06 01 November 2004, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On 31 Oct 2004 19:08:54 -0800, (Mark
Grubb) wrote:

Remember that AS-W12 pilots routinely (1000's of flights)
slipped a
50:1 glider to a landing in considerably less than
this in extreme
conditions including Appalachian ridge days(Schuemann),
wild thermal
days in TX (Scott, Greene) and monster wave days in
NV (Herold).


Ah, the ASW-12...
Unfortunately I never had the chance to fly one - I
would have loved
to try this landing technique. Maybe I gte the chance
one day - it's a
pity that my home airfield is only 2.000 ft.

I have landed 100's of flights in glass in Tehachapi,
CA without drag
devices. These landings were typically over a 30 ft
obstacle at
density altitudes 5000 ft, and ALL stopped in less
than 2500 feet.

How was your landing technique? As far as I know the
recommended
procedure was to put her on the main wheel at relatively
high speed
and use the wheel brake to stop her in order to avoid
the usage of the
brake parachute?



Bye
Andreas

On 1 Nov 2004 14:52:53 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

Here's a radical idea for the ASW-12. Jettison the
canopy, on the theory that it will then fly as if dive
brakes were open. grin

As I recall hearing, the L/D was 28/1 with the drogue
deployed. Are there any still flying? Seems I recall
a concerted effort to remove them from the market in
order to save lives.

Afaik by now all 12's have been converted to the 20 flap system with
landing setting.

Sissies. evil grin


Honestly: I admire the boldness of the designer and the pilots to
design and fly a glider with an L/D of 50 and no landing flaps in
order to gain about one point of L/D.
Pretty big ego concerning one's flying skills I guess.





Bye
Andreas

As I recall hearing, the L/D was 28/1 with the drogue
deployed.


Considerably less. Probably 15:1 with modified chutes (more area than
stock).

I spent several thousand man-hrs bebuilding/restoring S/N 12012 and
flew it for a couple of hundred hours.

Seems I recall
a concerted effort to remove them from the market in
order to save lives.

To my knowledge, only 1 person got killed - from a spin-in. Not much
to do with the ship as it is docile and very, very honest.

Another pilot slammed in after taking off with elevator disconnected.
Ship was essentially gone from stick forward but pilot only received
moderate damage to ankles / feet. He would have been very dead in a
modern ship.

Afaik by now all 12's have been converted to the 20 flap system with
landing setting.

Sissies. evil grin

Sure. Flaps only go down about 50 deg and made little difference in
flight path or landing skills. The extra drag was more than
compensated for by the lower landing speed and extra float. Every
little bit helped!



Pretty big ego concerning one's flying skills I guess.

Most of the pilots that flew them extensively were very conservative,
highly disciplined, albeit highly confident folks (Scott, Schuemann,
Herold, Greene, Smith, Nelson)

Basic landing technique in glass spoilerless:

1) Downwind abeam touchdown at 4-500 ft agl.

2) Speed 50-55 kts and held very closely, even in extreme slips!
Get fast and eat fence at end!

3) Set max-effort slip meaning that rudder is stalled and pedal is
held to
floor by air pressure. Ship rotates 50 degrees and a small amount
of bank
holds heading. May require using adverse yaw to get into this
condition or
slipping one way and then dynamically going the other way to get
into
stable, rudder-stalled slip.

4) Adjust pattern to arrive as low as one can over threshold, holding
55 kts
attitude

5) Hold slip through flair and continue to bleed speed.

6) Kick out slip and do a tail-low wheel landing.

7) Put flaps negative and brake to halt.

One can also slip hard mostly in the turns by rolling to 90 degrees
bank, feeding in full top rudder and pulling g to load wing. Very
effective way to descend from height.

Flaps can be slowly retracted post-flair to set ship on ground.
However, if too fast, you will not be able to land ( do not ask me how
I know!)

The real way to land short is to deploy #1 chute downwind abeam at
70-80 kts. Adjust pattern and point nose at threshold, holding a
minimum of 75 kts. As threshold is cleared, and you are close to
ground, deploy second (tail chute). Ship quits flying immediately and
will stop in 200-300 feet wth minor braking.

This method was used by Schuemann to safely fly X-C on the Appalachian
ridges for more than 2K hours accident-free. However, it is not for
the faint heart for the sloppy. Actions and timing are crucial. Must
be seen/experienced to be appreciated. The movies of this maneuver
are amazing!

While all of this sounds extreme and dangerous, it is most definitely
not. the techniqus were developed by some of the most experienced
analytical and conservative pilots in the sport. As I said
previously, I have actually tried all of these techniques, first at
altitude and then in many gliders to full stop landings. While it is
considerably more difficult than conventional landings, it is not
superhuman nor dangerous. If this were the case, most of the 12's
would be kindling wood and the pilots dead. Neither is the case!
There is a very large amount of empirical evidence in many different
locations in the wildest weather to support this hypothesis!

Armchair, wannabe R.A.S. theorists not withstanding!

Stalling in severe slips results in the nosefalling through and out of
the slip to a wings level recovery with very little effort or altitude
loss. Dragging a wingtip in glass during a Steady-State slip is
essentially impossible as the wingtip is never lower than the main
wheel. These gliders are severely rudder-limited. If the ship touches
down in a slip, it bounces up and straightens itself out (at least for
the '12. Never had it happen in any other ship!)

While I am high-time in power and glider and was flying more than
full-time (7 days /week for many months for many years) when I was
training for the '12, I do not consider myself a super pilot and
several of my less experienced friends were able to consistently land
their 15m / std glass ships spoilerless in less than 2000 ft.

Best, Mark

Mark Grubb wrote:

Another pilot slammed in after taking off with elevator disconnected.
Ship was essentially gone from stick forward but pilot only received
moderate damage to ankles / feet. He would have been very dead in a
modern ship.

What was it about the ASW 12 that saved him, compared to modern ships
like the ASW 27, Ventus 2, etc?

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I was required to do this in a Blanik L-23 for a BFR a few years back. I
picked a target point right at the threshold, held the slip as long as I
dared and watched a lot of airfield go by as I maintained 10-15 ft of
altitude. The float in ground effect was impressive. I tried flying mildly
cross-coordinated to increase drag. About 2/3 of the way down the field and
still at 5-8 ft, I decided to fly the ship onto the ground where I could
ground loop it, if necessary, to keep from hitting the fence and trees at
the end. Fortunately, the ground loop wasn't necessary.
I'm both glad to have had this experience and glad the requirement has been
removed.

Brent


"Roger Worden" wrote in message
om...
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning
slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and
turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a
desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way
from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at
700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

At 19:00 01 November 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to
practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it
the first
time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with
a Northeastern
U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there
back in the
1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik
and then
asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take
it out gently. I
pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen
the rope, then
waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the
glider.

'Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do
the first one.'

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up
well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down
until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft
of the towplane but
I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending
past us as
far as I could see.

The proper recovery technique was to stay above and
to the side of the
towplane so that as the slack began to come out and
you saw the loop
going by you from back to front, you could dive and
turn in to match
speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked!

I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't
as bad as the
first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over.
Turns out this
was a standard practical test item required by the
local Designated
Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot).

I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember
the details,
but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident
in that same
area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator
or aileron
during such a maneuver.

Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this
maneuver still
done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it?

And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this
kind of training?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 'JB'




As a student pilot about 3 years ago, I decided to
do a trial membership in a club. I had been flying
in a commercial operation. It was much less expensive,
although I did have to do work at the field as a member.


One of the club's oldest and most experienced instructors
took me up for the first time in their 2-33. We did
some slack rope recovery that scared the crap out of
me. I was used to some slack rope, but he went way
over the edge. Their was so much slack rope that we
were dangerously close to the tow plane and the rope
was hanging way down below us. I was able to recover
from the first exercise with some difficulty. He decided
to do it again, only closer to the tow plane.
Before I knew it, the rope was behind the wing and
I could hear it whizzing over the wing as I was yawed.
I reached for the release and pulled just as the rope
became taught. It snapped and released with 30 feet
of the rope hanging over the canopy.
The instructor said that we could keep on flying, as
there was no noticable damage to the 2-33.
After we landed, we got out and inspected the wing.
The last 1 1/2 feet of the left aileron was badly mangled
and the tow hook was bent sideways.
I felt terrible that I had damaged their 2-33 on my
first flight, but only until I received a phone call
from the president of the club, telling me that it
wasn't my fault and the instructor should never have
gotten me into that position. Needless to say, I never
flew there again and went back to the commercial operation.

That instructor is still there, but the tow pilots
finally realized how dangerous his slack rope recovery
techniques were and they started releasing the tow
plane when he got too close.
GORDY

Eric,

I've had two cases of not being able to open dive brakes
due to low temperatures. One in a Kestrel 19, where
at 19,000 feet on a cold autumn day in Scotland the
over-centre lock became so stiff I couldn't break it
out, the other in a twin Grob due to water inside the
airbrake box freezing and jamming the mechanism.

Never experienced a problem in a considerable amount
of cloud flying above the freezing level in the UK
- I've never heard of the ice on the wings getting
as far back as the airbrake cut-out. If you needed
to open the brakes in iceing conditions (to prevent
overspeeding) I would expect that after a very short
time it would become impossible to close them.

Chris Rollings

In 5000 hours of soaring, I've had the spoilers freeze
shut once. A
brief shower shortly before towing off for what eventually
turned into a
wave flight did the trick. I discovered them frozen
at 4000' AGL while
descending at the end of the flight, but at 3000 AGL,
they unfroze. I
had a tail chute, so a slip would not have been needed,
even in this case.

Has anyone else had spoilers freeze shut without flying
in clouds, were
it seems like you should be expecting it to happen?


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

There is a rumor around that someone left Mt. Mitchell
wave in N.C. and flew back to Chester S.C. and discovered
on arrival that the brakes (ailerons?) had frozen up
and had to fly around awhile to unfreeze. Have no idea
who it was.

At 08:00 02 November 2004, Chris Rollings wrote:
Eric,

I've had two cases of not being able to open dive brakes
due to low temperatures. One in a Kestrel 19, where
at 19,000 feet on a cold autumn day in Scotland the
over-centre lock became so stiff I couldn't break it
out, the other in a twin Grob due to water inside the
airbrake box freezing and jamming the mechanism.

Never experienced a problem in a considerable amount
of cloud flying above the freezing level in the UK
- I've never heard of the ice on the wings getting
as far back as the airbrake cut-out. If you needed
to open the brakes in iceing conditions (to prevent
overspeeding) I would expect that after a very short
time it would become impossible to close them.

Chris Rollings

In 5000 hours of soaring, I've had the spoilers freeze
shut once. A
brief shower shortly before towing off for what eventually
turned into a
wave flight did the trick. I discovered them frozen
at 4000' AGL while
descending at the end of the flight, but at 3000 AGL,
they unfroze. I
had a tail chute, so a slip would not have been needed,
even in this case.

Has anyone else had spoilers freeze shut without flying
in clouds, were
it seems like you should be expecting it to happen?


--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA