Spinning (mis)concepts

Pete Zeugma wrote:
We discovered that there was some packaging that prevented
the full travel of the airbrake.

What do you mean by "some packaging"?

Marc

At 04:30 30 January 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:

For those who don't know, gliders at Truckee (near
Lake Tahoe, elevation
5900 feet) normally use runway 19, which features a
cliff-like drop off
at the threshold.

How long is your runway? Club I fly fairly often at
in Scotland, Deeside GC (Aboyne), has quite wonderful
rotor/curlover/wind shear right down to the deck in
strong southerlies. It has two thin (5m and 7m ish)
parallel runways about 500m long (all figs approx)
situated between two ridgelines. There are two windsocks
either side of the runways, and in these strong southerlies
the socks are generally pointing in opposite directions.
I've had many a fast landing there in these conditions,
80-90knots is quite typical. It is common practice
to run on all the way to the end of the runway, to
keep it clear at all times. Of course, what you forget
to mention is that these are airspeeds, not ground
speeds. Landing a glider at 90knots ground speed is
very exciting!

"Pete Zeugma" wrote in message
...
At 04:30 30 January 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:

For those who don't know, gliders at Truckee (near
Lake Tahoe, elevation
5900 feet) normally use runway 19, which features a
cliff-like drop off
at the threshold.

How long is your runway? Club I fly fairly often at
in Scotland, Deeside GC (Aboyne), has quite wonderful
rotor/curlover/wind shear right down to the deck in
strong southerlies. It has two thin (5m and 7m ish)
parallel runways about 500m long (all figs approx)
situated between two ridgelines. There are two windsocks
either side of the runways, and in these strong southerlies
the socks are generally pointing in opposite directions.
I've had many a fast landing there in these conditions,
80-90knots is quite typical. It is common practice
to run on all the way to the end of the runway, to
keep it clear at all times. Of course, what you forget
to mention is that these are airspeeds, not ground
speeds. Landing a glider at 90knots ground speed is
very exciting!


When I flew at Aboyne, there was only one runway, a gravel pit at one end,
and stone fence at the other. Landing with rotor over the airfield was
_really_ interesting as the ASI didn't settle until about 5 feet off the
deck, swinging 30-70kts all the way downwind, base, and final. Radios were
important. The one sod with the broken radio flew a right hand circuit when
all others were flying left. He ( Open Diamant ) landed behind RAF L-13
(land long!) and in front of K-8(land short!). All three touched down at
the same moment and only just behind me. However, four wave flights in a
week and Gold altitude (4000ft cloud climb included). What a treat,
including the low-levels by the Buccaneers and Jaguars!

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

At 01:42 30 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
In article ,
Todd Pattist wrote:

As a matter of interest, how did you handle the request
to
demonstrate a 'no airbrakes' landing where you needed
a
forward slip on both base and final? Did you bring
the
rudder fully through to the opposite side (inside of
the
turn) to intersperse a coordinated turn between your
forward
slips?

Yep. Exactly. I've used slips in taildraggers extensively,
during no-flap demonstrations, and on lots of checkrides.
Always interspersed a coordinated turn. Kinda funny
to write it here now that I think about it. Just something
I haven't done before, I can't really explain why...



Ah, power planes, not gliders! Do you not think perhaps
we should be differentiating between rudder usage in
power plane, and a glider? I started flying originally
in gliders, so I dont have any bad habits from power
flying, and when I fly powered aircraft, i cant help
but fly coordinated all the time. I know that power
pilots who make the transition to gliders quite often
make fundemental errors due to the power mindset when
sat in a glider. What do you think?

Pete Zeugma wrote:

Ah, power planes, not gliders! Do you not think perhaps
we should be differentiating between rudder usage in
power plane, and a glider? I started flying originally
in gliders, so I dont have any bad habits from power
flying, and when I fly powered aircraft, i cant help
but fly coordinated all the time. I know that power
pilots who make the transition to gliders quite often
make fundemental errors due to the power mindset when
sat in a glider. What do you think?

Absolutely there are subtle differences that get overlooked.
Primacy is a factor here. Use of spoilers, wheel brake
not at the feet, no stall horn, can't use throttle to
descend, actually seeing adverse yaw, etc. All these
were probably much harder to learn (unlearn) than if
one started as a glider pilot first.

And the whole idea of energy management for rollout and
taxi was completely new, and the one wheel thing
and possibility of groundloop, etc. etc. etc.

Absolutely there are bad habits from transition.
And catching all of them is unlikely without additional
study by the student or new pilot. Instruction and
experience only go so far...study and discussion for me
seem to take it that extra step...

Cheers!

Mark

This is one of the biggest nonsense myths in the soaring community. It
amounts to an irrational prejudice towards power pilots who transition to
gliders.
There is considerably greater difference between, say, flying a Bonanza and
flying a Boeing 757 than flying any glider.
Gliders are incredibly easy to fly. Simply be aware of the differences.
It really amounts to attitude. (In both senses of the word.)
When flying a Bonanza, think Bonanza. When flying a King Air, think King
Air. When flying a B-757, think 757. When flying a F18, think F18. When
flying a glider, think glider. When flying a motor glider, think glider.
It can't be much simpler.

Allan

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:401acc7c$1@darkstar...
Pete Zeugma wrote:

Ah, power planes, not gliders! Do you not think perhaps
we should be differentiating between rudder usage in
power plane, and a glider? I started flying originally
in gliders, so I dont have any bad habits from power
flying, and when I fly powered aircraft, i cant help
but fly coordinated all the time. I know that power
pilots who make the transition to gliders quite often
make fundemental errors due to the power mindset when
sat in a glider. What do you think?

Absolutely there are subtle differences that get overlooked.
Primacy is a factor here. Use of spoilers, wheel brake
not at the feet, no stall horn, can't use throttle to
descend, actually seeing adverse yaw, etc. All these
were probably much harder to learn (unlearn) than if
one started as a glider pilot first.

....Snip....

"ADP" wrote in message
...
This is one of the biggest nonsense myths in the soaring community. It
amounts to an irrational prejudice towards power pilots who transition to
gliders.

Gosh, don't I know it! After 2+ years of CFIGing, often teaching very
accomplished power pilots transitioning to gliders, I have turned the
tables. I am learning to fly the old fashioned way, bouncing around the
pattern and the practice area in a tired but trusty Cessna. My instructors,
who know nothing of gliders and have never before dealt with any transition
student, see many of my glider "skills" as a series of curious "bad habits"
to be corrected. (They were particularly horrified by my brisk, power-off,
stall recoveries) As they have no frame of reference with which to deal
with me, I just tell them to think of me as a primary student and start from
the beginning.

Vaughn

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"ADP" wrote in message
...
This is one of the biggest nonsense myths in the soaring community. It
amounts to an irrational prejudice towards power pilots who transition
to
gliders.

Gosh, don't I know it! After 2+ years of CFIGing, often teaching
very
accomplished power pilots transitioning to gliders, I have turned the
tables. I am learning to fly the old fashioned way, bouncing around the
pattern and the practice area in a tired but trusty Cessna. My
instructors,
who know nothing of gliders and have never before dealt with any
transition
student, see many of my glider "skills" as a series of curious "bad
habits"
to be corrected. (They were particularly horrified by my brisk,
power-off,
stall recoveries) As they have no frame of reference with which to deal
with me, I just tell them to think of me as a primary student and start
from
the beginning.

Vaughn


You'll be so good at landings they'll probably never get around to teaching
go-arounds.

One day, an airplane will taxi on to your runway while you are on short
final. You'll probably revert to glider mode and land the Cessna on the
grass parallel to the runway. Then, you'll have to think up a really good
story to explain that.

Bill Daniels

At 07:00 30 January 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Pete Zeugma wrote:
We discovered that there was some packaging that prevented
the full travel of the airbrake.

What do you mean by 'some packaging'?


cant remeber the exact details, but it was either packing
or a spacer in the control rods at the wing root or
in the rods for the airbrake handle. Give val at our
club an email (london gliding club) and ask her to
get the workshop to give you further detail. After
this was removed from our duo it was much better and
we no longer have to do side slipping finals. Before
this I always thought that the blades did not appear
to be fully clear of the wing slot.

At 14:48 30 January 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
Pete Zeugma wrote:

Before
this I always thought that the blades did not appear
to be fully clear of the wing slot.

When blades are fully clear of the wing slot, you have
to be
certain that air loads will not flex them sufficiently
to
prevent them from re-entering the wing slot.

Thats probably why there is a placarded max rough air
speed!

Personally I dont touch them above this, unless I am
flying in known icing conditions where i crack them
open every now and then to make sure they have not
frozen (at a speed less than max rough air)

I presume the
modification you made (if that's what it was) was in
accordance with factory recommendations.

The problem here was that there was something left
in by the manufacturer that prevented full travel.
The offending item (which I cant remember exactly)
was removed in consultation with Schempp-Hirth by our
workshop.

I know some Grobs
had this problem, and the fix was to limit airbrake
throw
specifically to prevent the blades from clearing their
slots, thereby ensuring they could not lock the brakes
open.

The problem here was about inefectual power in the
brakes as they did not open sufficeintly enough (i
think ours only open half their designed throw) hence
Marc saying he has to side-slip to get a good decent
rate with full brake open.