Experience Question

3 days.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

I guess I have a mixed opinion. I have recently completed my Commercial
Checkride. During that process I discovered that I did not know what I
thought I knew. In other words, there is always something to learn and
experience to be gained.

As far as the kids, I flew my children on a Private ticket. I was careful,
VFR only, and short hops only.

We all made it safely, I learned, they learned and we all had fun in the
process.

You are licensed to decide who goes and who does not. It is your decision
not the in-laws.

--
Bill Snow

Fred Choate wrote:

My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?

My kids have flown "since before they were born". My wife quit flying
solo when she was too pregnant to pull the yoke all the way back on a
C152.

Since 5 years old, each of the kids have been able to hold straight
and level, on course, IFR, in the soup. After all, all they could see
in the front seat was the instruments, and to them it was just a large
video game.

But, they are spoiled. Neither of the kids has "taken to" aviation.
They think "everyone" has an SUV at the airport and can go
wherever/whenever. For my wife, after she soloed, and knew that she
could land the airplane if something happened to me, she sits in the
back and reads a book while the world goes by.

So, since my family is not interested beyond the travel time, I
volunteer for Civil Air Patrol flight academies... power and glider.

Yes, I love to fly and teach!

In the mean time, I keep myself busy teaching mountain flying ground
school (5 of them this year), and then doing the flight training in
the mountains. I no longer do "mountain checkouts". What I do is
"mountain training to proficiency". The typical "2-3 hour mountain
checkout" is just enough to get some killed by attempting to operate
beyond their and their aircraft's capabilities.

After a full day ground school (Colorado Pilots Association), I have
3.5 full days of flying scheduled to take a pilot all over Colorado
and help them with operational experience and a high level of
proficiency and comfort in the Colorado Rockys! Many of my customers
return in later years for a "brush up" on proficiency and techniques.

After flying with me in Colorado, I recommend "McCall Mountain and
Canyon Flying Seminars" in McCall, ID. After that... Alaska!

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 228 Young Eagles!

wrote in message ...
Fred Choate wrote:

My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?

My kids have flown "since before they were born". My wife quit flying
solo when she was too pregnant to pull the yoke all the way back on a
C152.

Since 5 years old, each of the kids have been able to hold straight
and level, on course, IFR, in the soup. After all, all they could see
in the front seat was the instruments, and to them it was just a large
video game.

But, they are spoiled. Neither of the kids has "taken to" aviation.
They think "everyone" has an SUV at the airport and can go
wherever/whenever. For my wife, after she soloed, and knew that she
could land the airplane if something happened to me, she sits in the
back and reads a book while the world goes by.

So, since my family is not interested beyond the travel time, I
volunteer for Civil Air Patrol flight academies... power and glider.

Yes, I love to fly and teach!

In the mean time, I keep myself busy teaching mountain flying ground
school (5 of them this year), and then doing the flight training in
the mountains. I no longer do "mountain checkouts". What I do is
"mountain training to proficiency". The typical "2-3 hour mountain
checkout" is just enough to get some killed by attempting to operate
beyond their and their aircraft's capabilities.

After a full day ground school (Colorado Pilots Association), I have
3.5 full days of flying scheduled to take a pilot all over Colorado
and help them with operational experience and a high level of
proficiency and comfort in the Colorado Rockys! Many of my customers
return in later years for a "brush up" on proficiency and techniques.

After flying with me in Colorado, I recommend "McCall Mountain and
Canyon Flying Seminars" in McCall, ID. After that... Alaska!

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 228 Young Eagles!

I went to the McCall school last week and had the most fun that I have ever
had flying!

Mike
MU-2

My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?

I think I had my private all of two weeks before I took my parents on a
weekend trip, New Jersey to Pennsylvania. We had friends there, and
the round trip of just under 4 hours in the rental C-172 eliminated a
round trip drive of over 10 hours in the family car. Of course at that
point I had already flown that rental C-172 from Indiana to New Jersey,
but I was still well under 100 hours.

I felt very comfortable and very safe making that weekend trip. The
weather was good VFR, it was a pleasant day in late spring, I had it
all planned out and hit every checkpoint, and I felt proud of myself
for spotting the nondescript little strip in Pensylvania, and for the
way I handled the busy Sunday afternoon arrival into Caldwell. The
plane performed flawlessly, flying the entire trip without a hiccup.
Truly it could not have been any better.

In retrospect, while I think the trip from Indiana to New Jersey days
after getting the ticket was great, taking the family on that weekend
jaunt wasn't such a hot idea. That was over a decade and over 2000
hours ago, and my perspective on proficiency is a little different now
than it was then. In other words - I know how little I knew, how
poorly maintained the plane was, how much riskier that flight was
(compared to driving in the family car), and how poorly I communicated
this risk to my parents.

Was the risk acceptable? To me, certainly. To my mother? She avoids
driving at night or in bad weather as much as possible to reduce the
risk, which is small by aviation standards. Would she have gone had
she understood how bad the risk really was? I doubt it. Driving is
the most dangerous thing most people do, but it is much safer than
personal flying by any reasonable statistical measure, regardless of
how you may feel about it.

Some say the good lord protects fools and madmen, and thus he must
surely protect the newly minted private pilots, hours still in two
digits, who pile the family into the airplane and take off.

So if not right after getting the ticket, when? Well, here's how I
look at it. I don't much enjoy flying in the back seat of a GA
airplane, but I'll do it for transportation. In the back seat, my
experience and proficiency means little - I have no accees to the
controls, and so I am at the mercy of the pilot. I think nothing of
getting into the back seat of a car with a stranger, but I won't do the
same with an airplane - the risk is much greater. Every pilot is
different, but there are quite a few that I know that I would get into
the back seat. Only one has less than 300 hours (I'm not sure he even
has 100), and he had unusually high quality training (I believe the
average experience level of the instructors who taught him was 5000+
hours).

From what I've observed, most pilots will begin to understand their
limitations and the limitations of their aircraft (really understand
them, not just imagine them to be arbitrarily restrictive) somewhere
around the 300-600 hour mark, if ever. That's how long it takes for
them to scare themselves enough times. That's also about the point
where they gain a level of proficiency that makes it seem reasonable to
me to put my life in their hands, again if they're ever going to reach
it. My experience is also that a pilot who hasn't reached that point
in 600 hours isn't ever going to, unless he commits to long term,
intensive, high-quality training. This is highly uncommon in personal
aviation. I suspect it's because at that point the habit patterns are
set, and the pilot is either so conservative he has no idea where his
limits really are because he's never encountered them, or so reckless
that he sees every mistake he got away with as further proof that he is
the latest incarnation of Chuck Yeager. I won't fly with either kind -
the latter because I'm all too likely to be there when he says "Hey,
y'all, watch this" and the former because when the truly unexpected
happens to him (and it will), he will have no idea how to cope.

Having said all that - they're your kids. You make decisions about
what is and what is not safe enough for them all the time. Just
remember that when they get to be teenagers and want to drive (or ride
motorcycles), if you forbid it on the basis of safety you really
haven't a leg to stand on.

Michael

I took my son right after the checkride. But right now I haven't been in a
plane for a couple months due to work/weather/rental bird availability, so
wouldn't do it today if the plane was available. Would take a bit of time
with an instructor and some solo time first (even though I could *legally*
strap him in and go). Maybe that will change in a few hundred hours (100
now), but right now I still prefer the reality check with the instructor
(or at least some solo practice) if I haven't been in the plane for more
than a month or so.


Fred Choate wrote:

Hello All....

This may sound silly, but I would like to hear some opinions on a matter
presented to me this evening.

I recently got my ticket. I started 5 years ago, and due to certain
circumstances, I had to take 4 1/2 years off, then I picked up and did 10
more hours of training to prep for the checkride. My total hours to date
are 63.8 with 26.7 of those being solo time.

Okay, that being said, my In-Laws made a comment to me tonight about
flying
with my children. Actually, they put it in the context of "do you really
think it is a good idea to fly with your children until you get more
hours....." followed by "....Larry (one of the In-Laws) didn't fly with
family members until he had 300 hours....".

I didn't even respond. My question to you folks is simply, how long did
you all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?
Myself.....my kids were the first passengers I took up, and I felt
completely safe, prepared, and at ease with them in the aircraft with me.

Comments?

Fred

I got my ticket at 60 hours and my kids were the passengers on my first
flight as a PP/ASEL.

Al Gilson
N3082U
SFF

Fred Choate wrote:
Hello All....

This may sound silly, but I would like to hear some opinions on a matter
presented to me this evening.

I recently got my ticket. I started 5 years ago, and due to certain
circumstances, I had to take 4 1/2 years off, then I picked up and did 10
more hours of training to prep for the checkride. My total hours to date
are 63.8 with 26.7 of those being solo time.

Okay, that being said, my In-Laws made a comment to me tonight about flying
with my children. Actually, they put it in the context of "do you really
think it is a good idea to fly with your children until you get more
hours....." followed by "....Larry (one of the In-Laws) didn't fly with
family members until he had 300 hours....".

I didn't even respond. My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?
Myself.....my kids were the first passengers I took up, and I felt
completely safe, prepared, and at ease with them in the aircraft with me.

Comments?

Fred

I was instrument-rated and had 300 hours before I took my first
passenger.

I wanted to make very sure that I could handle whatever Mother Nature
(within reason) handed me before I flew with someone else.

The fact that you passed a checkride says pretty much nothing about
your safety or competence.

"Scott Draper" wrote in message
...
I was instrument-rated and had 300 hours before I took my first
passenger.

I wanted to make very sure that I could handle whatever Mother Nature
(within reason) handed me before I flew with someone else.

The fact that you passed a checkride says pretty much nothing about
your safety or competence.

Sorry Scott,

But having your IA and 300+ hours says nothing about yours either.

As other have pointed out, there are low-time pilots who fly as
professionally as ATPs and there are high-time pilots who are lucky to still
be alive.

IMO, it boils down to personal limits and not letting your ego write checks
your experience can't cash.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

Jay Beckman wrote:
"Scott Draper" wrote in message
...
I was instrument-rated and had 300 hours before I took my first
passenger.

The fact that you passed a checkride says pretty much nothing about
your safety or competence.

Sorry Scott,

But having your IA and 300+ hours says nothing about yours either.

Well, I think both of you are taking things to a bit of an extreme.

DEs are not generally in the habit of handing tickets out to those they
do not think competent, and DEs are about as well-prepared as anyone to
make that call. I don't think it's crazy to say that a newly-minted
pilot is reasonably safe to make sunny-day hops.

Likewise, the IR does indicate that you've obtained a basic competency
in managing flight in conditions that a non-rated pilot may not be able
to handle. However, it is a very specific education, and in many
circumstances you'd be better off with a pilot who learned aerobatics
than with an instrument pilot. To me, its first and foremost use is as
an indicator of attitude- all other things being equal, a pilot who has
earned the rating has demonstrated a commitment to mastering the arts
of aviation. YMMV.

-cwk.