OT a bit - fly to the moon or Mars?

If one, or all, of the ships had sunk, some may have survived in a long
boat, or even a hunk of mast floating, but the *point* being, they weren't
instantly, automatically doomed when the ship sunk.

So there you are, floating on a hunk of mast, a thousand miles from
anywhere, in the middle of the ocean - an ocean nobody has crossed
before and most people think is close to the big waterfall at edge of
the world. You have three days before you die of thirst, a week or
three before you starve.

Oh. There are sharks.

What's your point? It's better to die slowly?

how'd the QM get in this?

The QM is how we think of ocean travel now. It was harder back in the
days when the world was flat.

my position is that the ones operating on
terra firma (or to a lesser degree water) have an advantage over someone
operating in a vacumn @ plus/minus 2-300º (or whatever) millions of miles
from earth.

But the ones operating in a vacuum have the advantage of NASA.

You pick your tools to match your challenge. That's all.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

So there you are, floating on a hunk of mast, a thousand miles from
anywhere, in the middle of the ocean - an ocean nobody has crossed
before and most people think is close to the big waterfall at edge of
the world. You have three days before you die of thirst, a week or
three before you starve.

Oh. There are sharks.

What's your point? It's better to die slowly?

No - it's better to stage your hypothetical ship wreck closer to a beautiful
hypothetical tropical island, just over the horizon from where your
dimwitted skipper sailed by yesterday, and you're found on the beach by
these knock out gorgeous babes that think you're a god, and give you
anything you want. Geez, you need to develop some optimistic imagination
Jose.......


how'd the QM get in this?

The QM is how we think of ocean travel now. It was harder back in the
days when the world was flat.

my position is that the ones operating on
terra firma (or to a lesser degree water) have an advantage over
someone operating in a vacumn @ plus/minus 2-300º (or whatever)
millions of miles from earth.

But the ones operating in a vacuum have the advantage of NASA.

You pick your tools to match your challenge. That's all.


But their tools are millions of miles away... opps...
I agree that without some outreach to things that might be, could be, may
be, we'd be in trouble. It's just that today we have so much advance
knowledge of what it is.. What is more worrysome than go or nogo to Mars is
near space, and I have no qualms about being dominant there, no matter what;
but, I've already said that, or at least that it was my main concern.

You pick your tools to match your challenge. That's all.
But their tools are millions of miles away...

Don't be silly. Their tools are right at hand - they didn't launch for
Mars without technology, foresight, and backup. Now, like the ship in
the storm, it may not be enough. That's part of what it means to
explore. But if they do make it, the whole solar system is opened up.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Those explorers will meet a cadre of Martians who came from Earth
before the hardware and technology was ready.


That couldn't get back home, and are so mutated from radiation, inadequate
oxygen and water, they really do look like four foot green men with bug eyes
and three fingers...

On May 9, 6:05 pm, "ManhattanMan" wrote:
Apollo 13 were the luckiest three guys imaginable when theirs hung on long
enough to get back home! You mentionedLindbergh(Lucky Lindy!), and I kind
of remember reading he landed with fumes (?) left in his gas tanks; [..]

Not a comment on anything you wrote, except to make sure the record is
straight as far as Lindbergh's Paris flight goes: No fumes at all.
He left out radios and many other things just to make sure he had LOTS
of reserve fuel. In fact, after his 33 hour flight, he still had over
16 hours of fuel remaining. He was a master of fuel conservation and
went on later to teach Pacific WW-II combat pilots how to stay aloft
far longer than anyone thought possible.

Kev

("Austin Gosling" wrote)
My alltime favorite quote (somewhat loosey quoted):

"We choose to go to the moon not because it is easy, but because it is
hard" - JFK


President John F. Kennedy
Delivered in person before a joint session of Congress
May 25, 1961

http://tinyurl.com/2rmcsy
(same link as below)

find ........ May 25, 1961 click on it
click ...... "Listen to excerpt of this speech"
click ...... "Change Media Prefferences"
click ...... "Choose an Audio Player"
click ...... "Download this File"

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/Speeches+of+John+F.+Kennedy.htm

President John F. Kennedy
Delivered in person before a joint session of Congress
May 25, 1961

IX. SPACE

Finally, if we are to win the battle that is now going on around the world
between freedom and tyranny, the dramatic achievements in space which
occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to us all, as did the
Sputnik in 1957, the impact of this adventure on the minds of men
everywhere, who are attempting to make a determination of which road they
should take. Since early in my term, our efforts in space have been under
review. With the advice of the Vice President, who is Chairman of the
National Space Council, we have examined where we are strong and where we
are not, where we may succeed and where we may not. Now it is time to take
longer strides--time for a great new American enterprise--time for this
nation to take a clearly leading role in space achievement, which in many
ways may hold the key to our future on earth.

I believe we possess all the resources and talents necessary. But the facts
of the matter are that we have never made the national decisions or
marshalled the national resources required for such leadership. We have
never specified long-range goals on an urgent time schedule, or managed our
resources and our time so as to insure their fulfillment.

Recognizing the head start obtained by the Soviets with their large rocket
engines, which gives them many months of leadtime, and recognizing the
likelihood that they will exploit this lead for some time to come in still
more impressive successes, we nevertheless are required to make new efforts
on our own. For while we cannot guarantee that we shall one day be first, we
can guarantee that any failure to make this effort will make us last. We
take an additional risk by making it in full view of the world, but as shown
by the feat of astronaut Shepard, this very risk enhances our stature when
we are successful. But this is not merely a race. Space is open to us now;
and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of
others. We go into space because whatever mankind must undertake, free men
must fully share.

I therefore ask the Congress, above and beyond the increases I have earlier
requested for space activities, to provide the funds which are needed to
meet the following national goals:

First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the
goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning
him safely to the earth. No single space project in this period will be more
impressive to mankind, or more important for the long-range exploration of
space; and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish. We propose
to accelerate the development of the appropriate lunar space craft. We
propose to develop alternate liquid and solid fuel boosters, much larger
than any now being developed, until certain which is superior. We propose
additional funds for other engine development and for unmanned
explorations--explorations which are particularly important for one purpose
which this nation will never overlook: the survival of the man who first
makes this daring flight. But in a very real sense, it will not be one man
going to the moon--if we make this judgment affirmatively, it will be an
entire nation. For all of us must work to put him there.

Secondly, an additional 23 million dollars, together with 7 million dollars
already available, will accelerate development of the Rover nuclear rocket.
This gives promise of some day providing a means for even more exciting and
ambitious exploration of space, perhaps beyond the moon, perhaps to the very
end of the solar system itself.

Third, an additional 50 million dollars will make the most of our present
leadership, by accelerating the use of space satellites for world-wide
communications.

Fourth, an additional 75 million dollars--of which 53 million dollars is for
the Weather Bureau--will help give us at the earliest possible time a
satellite system for world-wide weather observation.

Let it be clear--and this is a judgment which the Members of the Congress
must finally make--let it be clear that I am asking the Congress and the
country to accept a firm commitment to a new course of action, a course
which will last for many years and carry very heavy costs: 531 million
dollars in fiscal '62--an estimated seven to nine billion dollars additional
over the next five years. If we are to go only half way, or reduce our
sights in the face of difficulty, in my judgment it would be better not to
go at all.

Now this is a choice which this country must make, and I am confident that
under the leadership of the Space Committees of the Congress, and the
Appropriating Committees, that you will consider the matter carefully.

It is a most important decision that we make as a nation. But all of you
have lived through the last four years and have seen the significance of
space and the adventures in space, and no one can predict with certainty
what the ultimate meaning will be of mastery of space.

I believe we should go to the moon. But I think every citizen of this
country as well as the Members of the Congress should consider the matter
carefully in making their judgment, to which we have given attention over
many weeks and months, because it is a heavy burden, and there is no sense
in agreeing or desiring that the United States take an affirmative position
in outer space, unless we are prepared to do the work and bear the burdens
to make it successful. If we are not, we should decide today and this year.

This decision demands a major national commitment of scientific and
technical manpower, materiel and facilities, and the possibility of their
diversion from other important activities where they are already thinly
spread. It means a degree of dedication, organization and discipline which
have not always characterized our research and development efforts. It means
we cannot afford undue work stoppages, inflated costs of material or talent,
wasteful interagency rivalries, or a high turnover of key personnel.

New objectives and new money cannot solve these problems. They could in
fact, aggravate them further--unless every scientist, every engineer, every
serviceman, every technician, contractor, and civil servant gives his
personal pledge that this nation will move forward, with the full speed of
freedom, in the exciting adventure of space.


Montblack

This is odd - I know for certain that I have seen a video, where JFK
said (as best I can remember) "We choose to got to the moon
[cheering],... we choose to go to the moon and do the other things, not
because they are easy, but because they are hard." That text isn't in
this one.

Aah - here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz9OXE91fP0

Montblack wrote:
("Austin Gosling" wrote)
My alltime favorite quote (somewhat loosey quoted):

"We choose to go to the moon not because it is easy, but because it is
hard" - JFK


President John F. Kennedy
Delivered in person before a joint session of Congress
May 25, 1961

http://tinyurl.com/2rmcsy
(same link as below)

find ........ May 25, 1961 click on it
click ...... "Listen to excerpt of this speech"
click ...... "Change Media Prefferences"
click ...... "Choose an Audio Player"
click ...... "Download this File"

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/Speeches+of+John+F.+Kennedy.htm

President John F. Kennedy
Delivered in person before a joint session of Congress
May 25, 1961

IX. SPACE

Finally, if we are to win the battle that is now going on around the world
between freedom and tyranny, the dramatic achievements in space which
occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to us all, as did the
Sputnik in 1957, the impact of this adventure on the minds of men
everywhere, who are attempting to make a determination of which road they
should take. Since early in my term, our efforts in space have been under
review. With the advice of the Vice President, who is Chairman of the
National Space Council, we have examined where we are strong and where we
are not, where we may succeed and where we may not. Now it is time to take
longer strides--time for a great new American enterprise--time for this
nation to take a clearly leading role in space achievement, which in many
ways may hold the key to our future on earth.

I believe we possess all the resources and talents necessary. But the facts
of the matter are that we have never made the national decisions or
marshalled the national resources required for such leadership. We have
never specified long-range goals on an urgent time schedule, or managed our
resources and our time so as to insure their fulfillment.

Recognizing the head start obtained by the Soviets with their large rocket
engines, which gives them many months of leadtime, and recognizing the
likelihood that they will exploit this lead for some time to come in still
more impressive successes, we nevertheless are required to make new efforts
on our own. For while we cannot guarantee that we shall one day be first, we
can guarantee that any failure to make this effort will make us last. We
take an additional risk by making it in full view of the world, but as shown
by the feat of astronaut Shepard, this very risk enhances our stature when
we are successful. But this is not merely a race. Space is open to us now;
and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of
others. We go into space because whatever mankind must undertake, free men
must fully share.

I therefore ask the Congress, above and beyond the increases I have earlier
requested for space activities, to provide the funds which are needed to
meet the following national goals:

First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the
goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning
him safely to the earth. No single space project in this period will be more
impressive to mankind, or more important for the long-range exploration of
space; and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish. We propose
to accelerate the development of the appropriate lunar space craft. We
propose to develop alternate liquid and solid fuel boosters, much larger
than any now being developed, until certain which is superior. We propose
additional funds for other engine development and for unmanned
explorations--explorations which are particularly important for one purpose
which this nation will never overlook: the survival of the man who first
makes this daring flight. But in a very real sense, it will not be one man
going to the moon--if we make this judgment affirmatively, it will be an
entire nation. For all of us must work to put him there.

Secondly, an additional 23 million dollars, together with 7 million dollars
already available, will accelerate development of the Rover nuclear rocket.
This gives promise of some day providing a means for even more exciting and
ambitious exploration of space, perhaps beyond the moon, perhaps to the very
end of the solar system itself.

Third, an additional 50 million dollars will make the most of our present
leadership, by accelerating the use of space satellites for world-wide
communications.

Fourth, an additional 75 million dollars--of which 53 million dollars is for
the Weather Bureau--will help give us at the earliest possible time a
satellite system for world-wide weather observation.

Let it be clear--and this is a judgment which the Members of the Congress
must finally make--let it be clear that I am asking the Congress and the
country to accept a firm commitment to a new course of action, a course
which will last for many years and carry very heavy costs: 531 million
dollars in fiscal '62--an estimated seven to nine billion dollars additional
over the next five years. If we are to go only half way, or reduce our
sights in the face of difficulty, in my judgment it would be better not to
go at all.

Now this is a choice which this country must make, and I am confident that
under the leadership of the Space Committees of the Congress, and the
Appropriating Committees, that you will consider the matter carefully.

It is a most important decision that we make as a nation. But all of you
have lived through the last four years and have seen the significance of
space and the adventures in space, and no one can predict with certainty
what the ultimate meaning will be of mastery of space.

I believe we should go to the moon. But I think every citizen of this
country as well as the Members of the Congress should consider the matter
carefully in making their judgment, to which we have given attention over
many weeks and months, because it is a heavy burden, and there is no sense
in agreeing or desiring that the United States take an affirmative position
in outer space, unless we are prepared to do the work and bear the burdens
to make it successful. If we are not, we should decide today and this year.

This decision demands a major national commitment of scientific and
technical manpower, materiel and facilities, and the possibility of their
diversion from other important activities where they are already thinly
spread. It means a degree of dedication, organization and discipline which
have not always characterized our research and development efforts. It means
we cannot afford undue work stoppages, inflated costs of material or talent,
wasteful interagency rivalries, or a high turnover of key personnel.

New objectives and new money cannot solve these problems. They could in
fact, aggravate them further--unless every scientist, every engineer, every
serviceman, every technician, contractor, and civil servant gives his
personal pledge that this nation will move forward, with the full speed of
freedom, in the exciting adventure of space.


Montblack

I hear, "... go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not
because ..."

"Austin Gosling" wrote in message
...
This is odd - I know for certain that I have seen a video, where JFK said
(as best I can remember) "We choose to got to the moon [cheering],... we
choose to go to the moon and do the other things, not because they are
easy, but because they are hard." That text isn't in this one.

Aah - here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz9OXE91fP0

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
I hear, "... go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not
because ..."

Interestingly NASA engineers took note of this ambiguity and kept it in
their back pocket in case they didn't land before 1970.

Hilton

Excellent response. It's good to know that there are other people who
consider the long term disposition of the human race.

mike

"Austin Gosling" wrote in message
...
This is a subject very near and dear to me, and one that I constantly
discuss with my sons as a way of trying to impart my view of things to
them.

Humankind eventually becoming extinct or leaving this planet is
inevitable. The sun has only around 4 billion years or so left, and will
other good stuff snipped